P-47 size comparison.

[GregP]

As a side note:
The UA-1E could seat a couple VIPs, 12 troops, four stretchers or various cargo.

I assume the VIPs needs a wet bar and that took up a lot of room.

 

[mjfur]

If size matters....

Grumman AF Guardian - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

• Crew: three[4]
• Length: 43 ft 4 in (13.21 m)
• Wingspan: 60 ft 8 in (18.49 m) (about 25 ft-wings folded (7.62 m)
• Height: 16 ft 2 in (5.08 m)
• Wing area: 560 sq ft (52.03 m2)
• Empty weight: 14,580 lb (6,613 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 22,640 lb (10,270 kg)
• Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney R-2800-48W "Double Wasp" radial engine, 2,400 hp (1,790 kW)

 

[pinehilljoe]

I remember reading there was an old saying, the P-47 is the crate the P-51 was shipped in.

 

[Macandy]

P-47 had a lot o' junk in the trunk

 

[elbmc1969]

Jimmy Doolittle received a doctorate in aeronautics from MIT in 1925, the first issued in the United States. (source: Wiki) Aeronautics was, at the time, an "emerging technology."

Gen. Doolittle first came to MIT in the fall of 1923 as an Army lieutenant, under a special program, to study advanced aeronautical engineering, the first such university course in the country. When he received the Master of Science and Doctor of Aeronautical Engineering degrees in June of 1925, there were not 100 men in the world who held comparable advanced degrees.

His doctoral dissertation, "Wind Velocity Gradient and Its Effect on Flying Characteristics," disproved the popular theory held by many pilots of the day that they could tell wind direction and the level of the plane by instinct even when they could not see the ground or the horizon. Applying classroom theory to test flights in the worst possible weather, he determined that there was no accurate way for a pilot to know how the wind was blowing or the attitude of the plane unless he had visual aids or instruments.

These were believed to be the first studies in aeronautics to combine directly data from the university laboratory with data from the flights of a test pilot.

Pilot, Corporator James H. Doolittle Dies

news.mit.edu

In my time there, I heard that Doolittle hung a plane upside down at MIT and very carefully piled sandbags on the wings until they cracked. That allowed him to determine the structural G-limit. However, that work may have been mis-attributed--still done at MIT, but by someone else.

 

[elbmc1969]

OK, how big would an LA-5 have been if it carried eight guns instead of two. 1154 liters of fuel (internal) instead of 464 liters and tried to fight at 23,000ft an up?
Maybe the US did goof with the specifications but the P-47 was designed to do things no other fighter could do at the time regardless of size and very few could do in 1944.
BTW the fuel capacity is for the "C" with the small tank/s.

First, the important question: how big would the P-47 have to be to carry eight 20mm ShVak? Otherwise, you might as well compare the Spitfire to the La-5 and ask what the La-5 would need to do to carry 8 guns.

The ShVak was a high-performance cannon, and much larger and heavier than the M2, so the La-5 didn't need as many guns as the 8x .50 hung on a Thunderbolt.

(I understand your general point, which is completely accurate, but there's also "Horses for courses." If you're not trying to fight in the stratosphere, or something equally ridiculous, there's no reason to drag around all sorts of equipment to boost your performance at altitude.)

 

[sotaro]

P-47 had a lot o' junk in the trunk


View attachment 701182

Thank you. the duct work and then the fuel tanks explain the thickness of the fuselage. I am wondering if the Hellcat fuselage plus the ductwork would equal the seat height (from the bottom exterior of the fuselage) between the Hellcat and the Thunderbolt. I love all the cutaways and drawings showing where things were.

 

[DBII]

If size matters....
View attachment 701106

Grumman AF Guardian - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

• Crew: three[4]
• Length: 43 ft 4 in (13.21 m)
• Wingspan: 60 ft 8 in (18.49 m) (about 25 ft-wings folded (7.62 m)
• Height: 16 ft 2 in (5.08 m)
• Wing area: 560 sq ft (52.03 m2)
• Empty weight: 14,580 lb (6,613 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 22,640 lb (10,270 kg)
• Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney R-2800-48W "Double Wasp" radial engine, 2,400 hp (1,790 kW)

4,000 lbs ordinance, winner!

 

[Shortround6]

The ShVak was a high-performance cannon, and much larger and heavier than the M2, so the La-5 didn't need as many guns as the 8x .50 hung on a Thunderbolt.

ShVak weighed 42kg.
M2 weighed 29KG,
P-47 was carrying 2.8 times the weight of guns, closer to 4 times the amount of ammo?
The M2 was not very weight efficient but the airplane makes doesn't pick the guns, The government does and the airplane maker tries to fit them in.
Anybody want to compare the Mig-3 size AND Weight to the P-47 as the Soviet plane that came closest to the speed/altitude of P-47 and check the weight of the armament?

 

[elbmc1969]

Also consider that in the 1930s and early 40s most designers were self taught.
Ed Heinemann was born in 1908, He joined Douglas in 1926 (age 18) as a draftsman. Bounced between several different companies until rejoining Douglas when Douglas bought Northrop. He became chief designer in 1936 (age 28?). Granted he was a genius but until the 1920s there weren't any collages/universities you could go to get a degree in aeronautical engineering. Some designers had staff to fall back on, structural engineers and "stressmen"(and they were a new field) and so on who were applying existing fields to aeronautics.
Most of the guys older than Heinemann had drawn full sized plans on shop floors during WW I. Through a lot of trial and error (crashes) they learned what worked and what didn't but sometimes they didn't know why. They kept tweaking what worked around the edges. Things got a lot better the further into the 1930s you got.

Wandering off-topic, I just got off the phone with my father. I was telling him about my visit to Le Bourget and contrasting the construction of the Yak-9 with American production in WWII especially the use of a single hydraulic press to stamp and cut pieces in the same operation.

My father identified this as the Guerin process, which popped the name back into my memory. It turns out the Henry Guerin was his first boss in California. Guerin showed him how the process worked and showed him the resistance welding techniques they were using. The company was combining these techniques in hope of producing the first stainless steel honeycombs. Guerin then set my father loose to machine the dies and weld the first samples (some of them are in the shed in his back yard). My father was 18 and was given pretty general instructions and light supervision.

Anyhow, the Guerin process was developed at Douglas Aircraft. Henry Guerin was the managing director of Douglas' Santa Monica plant in WWII and had personally developed the method.

It's not clear to me whether or not Guerin had a college degree. I don't know (yet) how much Guerin influenced my father, but my father never got a degree, but he did take engineering classes at UCLA. That did not stop him from having a career as an engineer, either. I wouldn't say that my father puled it off because he was smarter than other engineers, but my father does combine a lot of common sense, practicality, and ability to see to the heart of matters, and is driven nuts by inefficiency and poor design.

I may move some of this to a separate topic after I get further information. It probably belongs in "Not WWII."

 

[DBII]

... I wouldn't say that my father puled it off because he was smarter than other engineers, but my father does combine a lot of common sense, practicality, and ability to see to the heart of matters, and is driven nuts by inefficiency and poor design.

I like your father already. Sounds like one of the good guys.

 

[BlackSheep]

Whilst researching for the current Group Build in the modelling section, I came across this size comparison chart in the book "Thunderbolt, a documentary history of the Republic P-47", by Roger Freeman, which I thought might be of general interest. (apologies for the distortion, I had to photograph the page, as the book wouldn't fit on the scanner without damaging the spine).
We all know that the P-47 was a large aircraft, but this shows it wasn't just big, it was huge !
Note in particular its size compared to the Bf-109G.


View attachment 700028

Excellent graphic!

 

[eljefe]

Speaking of big...

 

[Just Schmidt]

That looks familiar... wonder where I saw it?

Taken by me at Colorado Springs Museum of the Air Force 30 July 2015.


View attachment 700829

I know the historical records proves otherwise, but to me this never looked like something that should be introduced into a shooting environment.

 

[Shortround6]

I know the historical records proves otherwise, but to me this never looked like something that should be introduced into a shooting environment.

Most everything aft of the engine except the turbo itself (all the way to right) was an air duct of some some sort.
It could affect the performance of the system (power at altitude) but would not stop it. Plane could continue flying for hours with dozen of holes in the tubes/ducts.
Not like holes in the radiator or oil cooler.
It may need an awful lot of repair work once it got home

 

[Just Schmidt]

Most everything aft of the engine except the turbo itself (all the way to right) was an air duct of some some sort.

It may need an awful lot of repair work once it got home

And possibly drive the pilot mad on the flight home, making whistling sounds that would make Azathoth envious.