P-51 Mustang or F4U Corsair

I'm talking conjecture. Just suppose that the jet engine was a tough pice of engineering to perfect in the days of slide rules.

Just imagine if it was determined that the metallurgy of that age was still not advanced enough to make a jet engine with enough performance to be usefull.

Back to the subject of the discussion, The Fw-190D-9 performance is as follows

Top Speed @ 3250rpm with MW-50 414mph true @ ~20,000.
Sea Level @ 3250rpm with Methanol, 367mph
5,905ft @ 3250rpm with Methanol, 390mph
Climb rate @ SL 3,329ft/min
Climb rate @ 33,465ft 392
Service Ceiling ~34,000ft
The supercharger cannot maintain full boost above ~16,000ft.
The MW-50 is only fully effective at low altitudes then drops off.

As you can see the climb rate is very close to the P-51 but 23+ mph slower and tops out 7,000ft lower than the P-51.
The P-38s average climb to 20,000ft is 3725ft/min and there is an AAF report I do not have that places an L model at 4.91min to 20,000ft! Speed wise the P-38 still has the advantage but the margin may be smaller (at least the Js). And they top out 10,000ft lower than the P-38.

Source Translated Tests, Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau G.m.b.H, Langenhagen. These tests were carried out from October 44 to March 2, 45 on production aircraft. By the end of December 44 183 aircraft had been delivered and upgraded to 1,900 hp. Sixty-one more had been delivered with MW-50 injection installed and were ready for operational use. It is unclear if any Methanol reached the flying fields.

These reports can be found at
www.spitfireperformance.com/fw190/fw190d9test

wmaxt

I have some RLM and FockeWulf testing documents for the 190 family that give a slightly different picture of 190D-9 perfromance than the documents at Spitfireperformance.com

Speed at sea level: 612 kph/380 mph w/ MW 50
Speed at 5.7km: 702 kph/ 436 mph w/MW 50

all from a single RLM report dated 1.10.1944, detailing the performance of 10 different FockeWulfe variants.

I have another serise of documents that give the maximum speed of the 190D9 as very similar: 613 kph @sealevel and 703 kph at @ 5.6km. Peak RoC is given as 21 m/sec, which translates to about 4132 feet/sec.

Finally, there is also a FW document dated 3.1.1945 which gives FW-190D-9 performance as 625 kph at sea level at 2.02 ATA/3250 rpm, using B4 fuel.

Jabberwocky said:

I have some RLM and FockeWulf testing documents for the 190 family that give a slightly different picture of 190D-9 perfromance than the documents at Spitfireperformance.com

Speed at sea level: 612 kph/380 mph w/ MW 50
Speed at 5.7km: 702 kph/ 436 mph w/MW 50

all from a single RLM report dated 1.10.1944, detailing the performance of 10 different FockeWulfe variants.

I have another serise of documents that give the maximum speed of the 190D9 as very similar: 613 kph @sealevel and 703 kph at @ 5.6km. Peak RoC is given as 21 m/sec, which translates to about 4132 feet/sec.

Finally, there is also a FW document dated 3.1.1945 which gives FW-190D-9 performance as 625 kph at sea level at 2.02 ATA/3250 rpm, using B4 fuel.

Click to expand...

I wonder if theres a way to reconcile them? The tests on spitfire.com are of production aircraft with gaps sealed, one was primed and polished, and several engines were tried. Other experiments were conducted to increase both top speed and climb. Is there a way to post them so we can discern the reasons for the differences?

Another thing is that there were also excerpts from a book about the 190D9. One of those excerpts mentioned that the production aircraft did not make the performance that was expected, in particular the supercharger was producing 60-100PS less than expected. I suspect a lot of data out there is from preproduction estimates. Another thing is they made a point of mentioning that Methanol was rarely available even to the testing facilities. Other fuels C3, and B4 were also rare at the airfields.

On the average the normal figures that are available are probably representative 426mph and 7.2min to 20,000ft. Thats still very close to the P-51/P-47P-38s it was primarily fighting and quite respectful.

No doubt the Fw-190D9 was a great plane and competitive.

wmaxt

wmaxt said:

Another thing is that there were also excerpts from a book about the 190D9. One of those excerpts mentioned that the production aircraft did not make the performance that was expected, in particular the supercharger was producing 60-100PS less than expected. I suspect a lot of data out there is from preproduction estimates. Another thing is they made a point of mentioning that Methanol was rarely available even to the testing facilities. Other fuels C3, and B4 were also rare at the airfields.

Click to expand...

B4 was the standard German figher fuel for the war from early on in the war. It may of been rare in the late periods of the war because of fuel shortages, but it was by far the most common aviation spirit that the LuftWaffe had available.

C3 was certainly rarer as it was more difficult to produce from synthetic oils.

Jabberwocky said:

B4 was the standard German figher fuel for the war from early on in the war. It may of been rare in the late periods of the war because of fuel shortages, but it was by far the most common aviation spirit that the LuftWaffe had available.

C3 was certainly rarer as it was more difficult to produce from synthetic oils.

Click to expand...

I'm sure your right I may have the B4 mixed up with something else.

One other consideration here, is that the P-38J-L level of performance (4,000ft/min @SL and ~5min to 20,000ft) was available in 6,000 aircraft from late '43 to the end of the war. The P-51/P-47 level of performance (I'm including range here) from Feb, '44. There were, by the sources I have, 667 Fw-190D models of all sub types and of the MW-50 equipped Fw-190D9s only 61 were just ready for operational use in late December '44. Many of the MW-50 aircraft were flown as water injected aircraft ("Oldenburg System") with 1,900hp because of Methanol deliveries.

I feel that the Fw-190D9 was a very good, competitive fighter just not a super fighter. The D9 was to few to late and to little to make a real difference.

wmaxt

The P-51 still wasn't a bad dog fighter. In one huge battle with Luffwafe they did pretty well, destroying half the enemy force. It doesn't say how superior their numbers were to the germans though. Maybe there were 500 Mustangs or something.

I realize like Maxt has said that the P-38 pilots did not receive as much training as the P-51 pilots might have.

http://www.shaw.af.mil/history/group.asp


Transition to the P-51 (in Less a Week)

By 22 July 1944, the 20th had completely transitioned to the new North American P-51 Mustang. Lieutenant Colonel Wilson equated the P-38 to flying an 'airborne ice wagon,' when compared to a P-51. With their extended range and horsepower, this aircraft helped to sweep the last remnants of the Nazi Luftwaffe from the air. Indeed, from mid-1944, many missions were flown unopposed by Axis aircraft.


During the first month of P-51 operations, pilots of the 20th Pursuit Group demonstrated the increased air superiority of the Mustang by destroying 70 enemy aircraft Their own losses numbered only 14 over the same period--a far better kill-to-loss ratio than they had achieved with the P-38. The increased range of the P-51 enabled group pilots to extend their coverage of European operations by two to three hours flying time. Standard flying time for a P-38 ran approximately four hours. Missions of six or seven hours were not uncommon for the P-51.

By November 1944, Allied air superiority had been so firmly established that the Luftwaffe attempted only two more full-scale interdiction missions against Allied bombers before the end of the war. On 2 November 1944, a German force of about 250 fighter aircraft intercepted 1,121 Eighth Air Force bombers and their fighter escort en route to the synthetic oil plants in Merseburg, Germany. In the ferocious air battle that followed, Eighth Air Force fighters destroyed 148 German planes, more than half the attacking force. Aircrews of the 20th Group contributed to the elimination of 33 enemy aircraft on that day. Lieutenant Colonel Robert P. Montgomery, led the 20th assault, destroyed three aircraft himself and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his performance.

Bomber escort missions by the 20th Pursuit Group for the remaining eight weeks of 1944 met little German resistance. Weather conditions, mostly fog, limited the group's participation in the Battle of the Bulge. Nevertheless, Eighth Air Force (including the 20th Group) bombing and ground strafing of German road and railway lines of communication effectively strangled the enemy to death, and by 10 January the German army had begun its retreat to the Rhine.


The Luftwaffe's Last Push

Germany launched her final major air defense operation on 19 January 1945. This last full-scale attack against allied bombers lasted approximately 20 minutes. In those 20 minutes, over the German homeland, aircraft of the Eighth Air Force downed a total of 121 out of 2l4 attacking aircraft without the single loss of a fighter aircraft. Only nine B-17s,two percent of the total force,were lost.

The late introduction of Luftwaffe jet aircraft, far superior to the P-51 mainstay of the Allied fighter force in both speed and high altitude performance, came too late to alter the course of the air struggle over Europe. The ME-262 twin jet and ME-163 single rocket engine aircraft, first appeared in small numbers at the end of 1944. Though not a great threat in air-to air combat, (they lacked maneuverability), these aircraft proved almost impossible to stop when they attacked the heavy bombers.

The balance of the war featured little German resistance to Allied air power. Bombers of the Eighth Air Force saturated the German homeland almost at will. Strafing attacks by Allied fighters, including the 20th, paralyzed German communications, transportation, and airfields. During February 1945, pilots of the 20th Pursuit Group expended approximately 165,500 rounds of ammunition, more than 16 percent of its wartime total expenditures The 20th led all Eighth Air Force fighter groups in the destruction of enemy aircraft during that month.

In the last month of the war, aircrews of the 20th downed their first ME-262s. On 10 April 1945, during airfield attacks around Potsdam and Brandenburg, 20th pilots destroyed five ME-262s in individual encounters, while the group as a whole eliminated a total of 55 German fighters (mostly on the ground) without a single loss to its own numbers.

Here is another acount of what happened on November 2.
http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/2nov44.htm

The germans were pretty outnumbered. Still, 16 fighters isn't too hard on the Mustang reputation.

2 November 1944: Sturmjäger Slip Through

On 2 November 1944, US 8th Air Force dispatched 1100 effective heavy bomber sorties against mainly oil targets in Germany, with focus on the Merseburg plant. Escort was provided by 873 effective fighter sorties.

The Luftwaffe rose in force - 490 fighters were scrambled in the first major effort to oppose the 8th Air Force since early September 1944. The Bf 109s of JG 27, climbing to reach the heavy bombers, ran straight into the more than 209 Mustangs of the 20th, 352nd, 359th and 364th Fighter groups which escorted the 1st Bombardment Division.

In their classical chronicle of JG 27, German historians Hans Ring and Werner Girbig describe the ensuing combat as a "turkey shoot". The dispersed German fighters then were pursued as they sought to escape, and many were shot down as they landed. 20th Fighter Group's 1/Lt Ernest C. Fiebelkorn caught four Bf 109s in a landing pattern and destroyed two of them, giving him three for the day and a total of 11 destroyed. Only small parts of JG 27 managed to break through to the bombers. Among those was Hauptmann Heinz Dudeck, IV./JG 27's commander, who got himself shot down by the bomber gunners' defensive fire.

When JG 27 finally had landed, 27 pilots were missing. Another 11 were wounded. No less than 53 of its Bf 109s had been shot down. In return, JG 27 claimed only eight victories, all against Mustangs.

II./JG 3 was no more successful. Its Bf 109s ran into the same Mustangs. 352nd FG ace Major George Preddy called his Group C.O., Col. Joe Mason: "Hello Topsy, this is Ditto Black Leader. Fifty plus bandits headed for the big friends!" In total, the 352nd FG was credited with 39 victories against only two own losses. II./JG 3 lost 23 Bf 109s and claimed only three Mustangs and a B-17 shot down.

However, while the 200 Mustangs slaughtered JG 27 and II./JG 3, the Fw 190s of the Sturmgruppe IV./JG 3 managed to slip through to the bombers. Carrying out a slow attack from the astern, the Sturmjäger claimed to have shot down 21 B-17s in just three minutes. Indeed it was a heavy strike, and the 1st BD actually lost 27 bombers out of 210 committed - a fearsome 13 % loss rate which testifies to the effectivity of the heavily armoured Sturmjäger.

But above all, the effectivity of the US fighters was displayed this day. When the Fw 190s broke off following the initial onslaught on the bombers, they became targeted by Mustangs from all directions. When the battle was over, 22 Fw 190s had been shot down. It is not known how many of these fell prey to the US fighters. Oblt. Werner Gerth, one of the most daring "four-engine killers" in IV./JG 3, perished as he rammed a B-17.

On 2 November 1944, I. Jagdkorps sent 490 fighters into the air against 1,973 US aircraft. A total of 305 German fighters managed to engage the enemy, and of these, no less than 133 were lost - in other words over 40 %! A total of 73 German fighter pilots were killed and 32 sustained injuries.

US losses were not light - 58 aircraft, 42 bombers and 16 fighters, were lost. But the US fighters had given proof of a vast superiority by bringing home 102 aerial victories.



Even though BF wasn't superior to the Mustang and so the battle was even more one sided, the P-51's didn't do too badly agains't the FW's either.

No wonder many of the Muslims were allies of the germans. Those pilots had grit and the will to commit suicide for their country. What that german pilot Gerth did using his fighter as a flying bomb would have made Osama Bin Laden proud.

I wonder what happened to that B-17.



Does anyone have an account of the last big german attack that happened on January, 19 1945? I can't seem to find one on the internet.

Hi Guys,
You all sure know a lot about German airplanes.
I don't know all that much, but I know that a Mustang will cruise a lot faster than a Corsair for the same HP. That is because of drag. There isn't a single lower drag airfoil out of any WWII design, even those fancy German airplanes.

The neat thing about a Mustang (the only WWII fighter I have ever flown) is how it just keeps accelerating when you level it off in cruise, and after you pull the power back and slow the prop down to cruise power, it just keeps going. At 10,000 feet it will indicate 250 mph at 36 inches hg and 2450 rpm. I think that is 800hp.

Now according to my buddies that have flown the Corsair, the neat thing is that it has so much HP that if you leave it at TO power, it'll go 350 kts indicated down low. That is really fast. Almost as fast is the oil temperature rise, etc, and that pretty much goes for all of these airplanes.

I think that between the two, Corsair and Mustang, you have a dead heat. One goes faster at altitude, one goes just as fast at low level, one dives like a bat, and has a great speed brake, the other will go so fast you must be carefull. The Corsair climbs well at low speed, the Mustang climbs well a little faster. The Mustang has high control pressures the faster you go, and I have heard the Corsair is better in that regard.

All of these late model jobs were good because they were built at a time when all of the latest of science was included, great gunsights, armament was reliable and able, engines were run on 115/145 octane gas so the detonation problems at high power were nil, high altitude ignition problems were licked, so two late model airplanes, a P-51D-25 and an F4U-4 with a couple of hot dog young combat guys and a head-on pass for a dog fight start would pretty much go on until they were out of gas, by my estimation.

For another thing, about those fancy german fighters, that K-4 was cool. Fast, but it wasn't doing anything unless you just used the fuse arms cause it is too heavy other wise. The wing is too small.
And that D-9 FW, neatest looking thing. I always wanted Doug Champlain to fly his. He never will though. We have to wait for the Flug Werks guys.
But that TA-152 with that long wing? That was NOT going to manuever like a fighter at high indicated airspeeds because that narrow chord wing with high control deflection would twist so that it would cancel the control and possibly get the reverse of what the pilot wanted. The B-47 did a similar thing. The TA seemed to me it was a U-2.

Great fantasizing with all of you. (I'd like to see the Pilot's Handbook figures on the Mustang and Corsair like that fellow with all of the German data did, mine are in storage.)

Chris...

"Germany launched her final major air defense operation on 19 January 1945. This last full-scale attack against allied bombers lasted approximately 20 minutes. In those 20 minutes, over the German homeland, aircraft of the Eighth Air Force downed a total of 121 out of 2l4 attacking aircraft without the single loss of a fighter aircraft. Only nine B-17s,two percent of the total force,were lost. "

20 minutes= 121 German fighters shot down? On January 19, 1945?

Weren´t those USAAF pilots one of the ultimate wonders of the world? I am sure such a deed must be included on the Guiness book of world records.

Now, was there any sort of "final" operation of the Luftwaffe on such day? That should have been Unternehmen Bodenplatte if i recall correctly, launched on January 1st, 1945.

In my view, it´s quite easy to understand why is it you are unable to find any further information on such a "final" battle, but I´ll leave this as a lovely riddle for you to solve.

That webpage is the perfect example of that allied style of telling history that fascinates me...it is humorous.

Super allied pilots in their super mounts having to fear absolutely nothing from the enemy. Chumping on chips and pop corn in the cockpits while shooting down enemy planes at will. It couldn´t have been easier!

100% casualty free melees. Not the slightest scratch. )

Mr. Welch: your comment on expert Werner Gerth came out just wide of the mark. To illustrate how wrong the website of that FG is, Gerth did not die in such a manner. Want to know who he died? Ask Erich, if he´s in the mood, he might help enlighting a bit further on how Gerth died.

Good evening for you all gentlemen,

Cheers

Sorry Mr. Gerth. I guess it's likely it didn't happen that way. Uh, the place that had the part about the plane ramming wasn't the 20th FG website. It was Bergstrom Books that had an excerpt about the US and German Air War. I guess they got the sources wrong about his death.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/gerth.html
Werner Gerth was born on 10 May 1923 at Pforzheim. Gerth was serving with JG 53, based in Italy, in late summer 1943. Leutnant Gerth was assigned to 7./JG 53. He sustained wounds in a RAF bombing attack on the airfield at Ciampino on 17 September 1943. In January 1944, Gerth volunteered to join Sturmstaffel 1 under the command of Major Hans-Günter von Kornatzski. He shot down his first four-engine bomber on 22 February 1944. On 6 March, he shot down two USAAF B-17 four-engine bombers and, on 11 April, two USAAF B-24 four-engine bombers. On 20 April 1944, Gerth was appointed Staffelkapitän of 11.(Sturm)/JG 3, but still served with Sturmstaffel 1. Later, Sturmstaffel 1 members joined his 11th Staffel, which was then renamed the 14th Staffel, on 10 August 1944. Sturmstaffel 1 attacked a force of about 40 B-17s on 29 April 1944 and, during a 30-minute battle, shot down almost half of the American bombers. Gerth shot down one B-17 and recorded a B-17 Herauschuss in this action for his 7th and 8th victories. On 7 July, he again shot down two B-24s (13-14). By the end of July 44, Gerth had amassed a score of 20 four-engine bombers shot down, including multiple victories on at least three occasions. He was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 29 October 1944 after 26 victories. On 2 November 1944, Gerth was hit by return fire while in the process of shooting down a B-17 over Halle. According to some sources he then rammed it and baled out, but his parachute did not open. He was flying a Fw 190A-8/R-2 Sturmbock (W.Nr. 682 057). There is little evidence to support Gerth's ramming of the bomber on the day of his death. His wingman, Feldwebel Oscar Bösch (18 victories) cannot confirm that Gerth died after ramming a bomber but indicates Gerth was shot down by fighters. Gerth was posthumously promoted to the rank of Hauptmann and awarded the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold.
Werner Gerth was credited with 27 victories. All his victories were recorded over the Western front, including 22 four-engine bombers. He was shot down twelve times himself.

Sturmstaffel 1 might deserve to be called a Wonder of the Air World. 20 bombers in 30 minutes? Thats some shooting.

Well here is a pilot recounting what happened during the Germans Operation Bodenplatte.

Maybe recounting it doesn't have much to do with the Corsair, but it does show the dog fighting abilities of the Mustang again'st greater odds and how it could handle low alltitude, turn and burn combat without much of the "Energy" or "Bounce" or "Boom and Zoom" or "Suprise" or "Allied Superior Numbers" factor to gain kills. I'm sorry to be nit picky, but those are the factors which aviation fans say gave the Mustang it's undeserved reputation and not dogfighting. Sure, but it could take one-on-one as well. Maybe the Corsair could have performed better?

http://www.looksmartusa.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200502/ai_n9477885/pg_5?pi=obc
NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTION

by 1st Lt Alden P. Rigby, 487th FS 352nd FG

None of us in the 352nd Fighter Group attempted to have a New Year's Eve celebration at our base in Belgium (called Y-29). It was so dreary, and the living conditions were so bad that it was a struggle to maintain our sanity and keep warm. Living on a forward air base only miles from the frontlines with big artillery barrages going off almost around the clock was excitement enough. But some alcohol would have helped, if we had had any!

When I awoke at 7 a.m. on January 1, 1945, typical European winter weather greeted me-gray clouds and lots of fog. I should have gone back to bed because I knew there wouldn't be a mission for us that day. Instead, I trudged over to the mess hall-not because the food was good, but because it was the only damn place that was warm! After breakfast, I wandered over to the operations tent, and it looked as if Lt. Col. J.C. Meyer was attempting to put a mission together.

Meyer was trying to get permission from 9th Air Force Command for a bunch of us to fly around the Bulge area and look for targets of opportunity. After some strong-arming and promises that would never be fulfilled, he got the go-ahead to have 12 of us go up on a short combat hop. At a briefing, we found out that we'd be going for a ride to look for anything German that moved; this would help the guys on the ground in the Bastogne area. We soon learned that we weren't the only ones who needed help!

I walked back out into the miserable cold through mud, snow and ice and made my way to the P-51Ds parked nearby. The fog still hung around, and I wondered how long we would be stuck on the ground waiting for it to lift. As I neared my plane, the unmistakable sound of many Merlin engines got my juices flowing. I had my own bird and named it "Eleen and Jerry" after my wife and daughter.

My crew had scraped the ice off the Mustang's wings and canopy and had it idling when I arrived. I felt the warmth from the North American heater as I strapped myself in. It was very pleasant inside the cockpit, and it looked as though I had a comfortable ride ahead. Boy, was I wrong!

Our fuselage and wing tanks were completely full of gas and our gun bays loaded with ammo as the 12 of us made it through the mud and fell in line to taxi. I was number four in "White Flight," which was to be the first flight off. Lt. Col. Meyer was "White One," and his wingman was "White Two." "White Three" was my element lead, 1st Lt. Raymond Litige. We had been sitting in our Mustangs for almost half an hour, just burning fuel from the fuselage tank and waiting for the fog to lift. At around 9 a.m. some 9th Air Force P-47s loaded with bombs and drop tanks took off ahead of us to look for German armor. Then it was our turn, and we taxied into position on the runway and waited for clearance from the tower. No one in the tower looked at us: all eyes were turned toward the east where a flak barrage was exploding over the end of the runway because of our defense perimeter guns.

"What the hell is going on?" I thought. "Those guys never shoot at anything." I heard Meyer call the tower and ask the same question. The tower had no idea either. I had enough presence of mind to turn on my gun heater and gun camera, just in case this was real. I looked up and ahead, and the sky was filled with birds-all German!


I picked them out about a mile northeast of the field. They were spread out low and flying fast. The scary thing about it was that, from all my combat experience, I knew they would take out the aircraft on the runway first, and I was in the front row! My row began to move as Meyer poured the coal to his Merlin.

We weren't about to wait for any green light from the tower, and we began to roll as Littge and I fought to control our Mustangs in Meyer's tremendous propwash in front of us. As I stayed glued to Littge's wing, I didn't even notice the 109s and 190s firing at us. We stayed on the runway longer than usual to get some extra airspeed and waited for Meyer to lift off. When we broke ground, I snapped up my wheels, and at 200 feet, an Fw 190 was waiting for us. He got between our flight and was on Littge's tail.

"Littge, break left!" I screamed over the radio transmitter. The 190 followed him in a hard turn, and my gunsight was now filled with German airplane; I pulled the trigger and raked it from the tail through its nose. The 190 poured black smoke from its engine, rolled over and went in from about 500 feet. It was every man for himself as our flight broke up and went on the defensive. I quickly found another Fw 190 below me and latched onto him.

By the time I had dropped the few hundred feet to get behind him, he had put some distance between us. I fired at him using my gunsight, and the darn bulb that illuminated my gunsight burned out! As I closed on the 190, I walked my hits forward and eventually shredded the 190 and brought it down, too. I used way too much ammo on that guy and I began to draw tracers.

I knew how my guns were loaded, and when I saw tracers, it meant that less than 300 rounds were left in my six guns. Every shot had to count if I was going to survive. I quickly decided to head back to the field, which was only 10 miles away, and to land, reload and get back into the fight. I was in deep trouble: no gunsight, high on fuel and low on ammo, and I had only been airborne less than seven minutes. My next problem was dead ahead and in my way-friendly flak bursts.

At 1,000 feet over our field, our antiaircraft gunners couldn't tell the difference between a blue-nose P-51 Mustang and a gray Fw 190, and whatever flew over or nearby was fair game. As flak flew all around me, I dived away and saw a Jug below me in a scrape with a Bf 109. They were in a Lufbury going 'round and 'round, and I watched them for a little while as the P-47 began to get some hits on the 109.

I was a little concerned about that P-47 because he still had his belly tank strapped on, and at 700 feet above the ground, tight turning was not the Jug's forte. I was also worried about jumping in with my own limited ammo supply. My selfish thoughts quickly faded away when the P-47 mushed through a turn and lost the advantage. I had no choice but to help this guy as much as I could.

I zoomed up from beneath and between them and pushed my throttle forward. The 109 was only 50 yards ahead of me and I opened up with a short burst. I saw hits on the left wing and around the engine area, and coolant began to stream from it. At this close range, it was hard to miss with six .50s. I didn't think I had any ammo left, and if I got jumped, I would be down to hand-to-hand combat!

After the 109 crashed below, I became an innocent bystander, just burning off fuel and watching the other fights around me. Slightly southeast of the field I saw one helluva fight between two Mustangs and a Bf 109. This German was good-I mean really good! He was doing split-S's at less than 800 feet off the ground-tight turns, and he even got off some shots at the fellow P-51s who were trying to box him in. I watched this duel for about five minutes until they headed toward me.


It was a running battle as the two Mustangs chased him broadside and into me. When he was 30 yards in front of me, I pulled hard left, pointed my nose at him and squeezed off what was left in my guns. The 109's cockpit completely shattered as he flew through my hail of bullets. Not quite a hail because I didn't think I had that many left! The 109 nosed over and dived straight in. This had been the longest 25 minutes of my life; my trigger finger was sore, and I just hoped I would land safely back at Y-29!

I called the tower for permission to land and was told to follow the P-51 on a three-mile final. I watched him as he neared the runway, and instead of the usual 360-degree overhead break, this guy pulled up over the runway and did a victory roll. The antiaircraft gunners were still on edge, and they opened up on him and followed him right down the runway. Thank God, they missed!

I landed at last, and as I taxied up, my crew chief was waiting for me. He felt badly about the burned-out bulb, but I couldn't have done any better if the gunsight had worked. We checked the gun bays and didn't find any rounds anywhere. All 2,700 rounds had fired. This was truly a miracle at Y-29. Our squadron score was 24 to none-not bad for just a "short hop" over the Belgian countryside with the "Blue-nosed Bastards of Bodney!"

Author's note: the 487th FS was awarded the Distinguished Unit Citation, and individual decorations were presented to Lt. Col. John C. Meyer, DSC; Capt. William T. Whisner, DSC; Lt. Sanford Moats, DSC; Lt. Alden Rigby, Silver Star; Lt. Col. William Y. Halton, Silver Star; Lt. Raymond Litige, Silver Star; and Capt. Henry M. Stewart, Silver Star.

Copyright Air Age Publishing Feb 2005
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved

Soundbreaker said:

20 bombers in 30 minutes? Thats some shooting.

Click to expand...

More like bad defensive firing to me....

Maybe so. In their greatest days the Germans may have been able to do a lot better.

I've just dived into the official USAAF kill claims list for WW2 and would like to add some information.

The official record actually shows no claims for 19th February, 1945 in the ETO. Yes, zero, nada, zilch.

John Wood's "Fighter Command War Diaries" lists 5 USAAF fighter losses on the 19th of February: 4 P-47s and 1 P-38.

So either SoundBreaker Welch's article has a typo/is worng or the official record needs to be adjusted.

I'm not seeing any discussions on the variant of the planes, the Goodyear FG-2 being my noob preference. I would have to say that both planes were exceptional, since they lasted firmly into the Korean War on front-line duty.

I don't think I had a typo? I just cut and pasted from the web sites.

I didn't mean you had a typo, just that the article you posted wasn't factually correct, which is half of the problem with sourcing things from the internet, which very rarely has any form of independent editorial review.

Bullockracing said:

I'm not seeing any discussions on the variant of the planes, the Goodyear FG-2 being my noob preference. I would have to say that both planes were exceptional, since they lasted firmly into the Korean War on front-line duty.

Click to expand...

Interestingly,
The Mustang wasn't the first choice for the Korean operation for the Air Force. The Thunderbolt was the airplane the Air Force wanted, but it's spares and numbers weren't up to the necessary levels.
NAA was worried that the Merlin spares wouldn't hold up either, and they drew up engineering drawings for the airplane to be re-engined with Pratt&Whitney R-2800's.

I can't remember who told me personally about the Thunderbolt choice, but it was either General Doolittle or Bob Hoover. I was a teen at the time and my head would swoon in such company.

An air racing friend had drawn some working drawings of a Mustang with an R-2800 CB-17 for a proposed racer and an old NAA engineer heard of it and provided some NAA original drawings. It was a pretty good looking airplane with the radial, too.

Tempest's (originally Sabre) and Sea Fury's (originally Griffon) were good lookers with radials, so not an unheard of switch.

Anyone find any good performance data on the Mustang and Corsair yet? The German/American thing is way off topic.

Chris...

Thanks for that Chris. Very interesting on the AF wanting the Jug. I only wish I was able to rub shoulders with either of the two characters you mentioned...

Do you have any of the drawings of the Mustang with a radial? I know the 109 with the annular cowling wasn't very pretty, and that's the look I keep seeing in my mind's eye on the Mustang.