Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
If the P-61 was designed without the turret and designated gunner & his cockpit, the resulting aircraft could've been both smaller and lighter. The central pod losses the superimposed gunner's quarters, meaning lowering the drag further. Hopefully the resulting aircraft would've been just a bit bigger than the F7F, with a turn of speed around 400 mph.
Alternatively, accept (X)P-65 proposal from Grumman, but with R-2800 engines and no turbo.
We are designing with hindsight.
Army didn't sign contract for the XP-65 (with R-2600s) until June of 1941. R-2600s were supposed to be turboed. Navy signs up for two prototypes 2 weeks later.
F7F night fighters had 375 gallons of internal fuel, radar operator cockpit took the place of 80 gallons of fuel.
The F7F or something like it wouldn't have met the requirement for endurance in the early specifications.
In 1940-41 nobody actually know what size the future radar units would be.
F7F-3N with the same radar as the P-61. of course they had several years to figure out how to fit it to the airframe.
BTW a 150 gallon belly tank cost about 11mph using normal power, at 300 gallon tank costs 12mph .
You are welcome, just trying to that the P-61 was designed with a few unknowns.Thanks for the timeline.
That isn't the problem, it was part of the timeline.I've already stated that -2600s were to be with turbo on the XP-65, for the AAF version; the USN version was supposed to be with R-2800s? So let's have R-2800 for the both.
Problem with F7F's fuel situation is that it did not housed a single gallon of fuel in it's wings, all 455 sq ft, or about the same area as in the Mosquito, so Grumman would've need to adress this by adding fuel tankage in the wings.
I wouldn't be suprised the same thinking was very common with the RAF
Which RAF or Fleet Air Arm aircraft were not allowed to go over North Korea?
Probably the only RAF aircraft worth sending to Korea was the Canberra. A MIG15 wouldn't get anywhere near a Canberra at altitude.
...
The wing roots have the 20mm guns in them, the ammo boxes are in the wings outboard of the cannon. oil cooler takes up space out board of cannon
Then we start to run into one of the reasons the Army canceled and allowed Grumman to dedicate the airframe to Navy needs.
Navy isn't going to want fuel tanks in the part of the wing that folds. you are starting to run out of wing.
Mosquito used a large part of the inner wing for fuel tanks.
The radiators and ducts [on Mosquito] only occupied space in front of the front spar. .
Please also note that the F7F got part of it's performance from it's R-2800-22/W engines which were "C" series engines. Not available for the first few hundred P-61s at the very least.
Power may have been a bit closer to late B-26 engines than to the two stage engines used in the P-61 but they were about 120lbs lighter, had no inter-coolers and no inter-cooling ducting. They required less cooling air at the same power levels and so had less drag even for the basic engine.
Maybe Grumman or Northrop could have built a smaller night fighter but it may well have required giving up more than just the turret and four .50cal guns. Radar and tactics were evolving. Early radar had a minimum range and often the radar operator would look up from his screen/hood and try to get a visual once they had closed to minimum range. 2 pairs of eyes being better than one. Radars got shorter minimum ranges and better angle discrimination even as the prototype night fighters were being built. Short of throwing thousands of man hours out and starting over they were stuck with what they had.
Only indirectly. Vmc is determined by engine power and placement, yaw stability, and rudder authority. Obviously, you'll want lower Vmc as stall speed decreases, but they're not directly related.Is the Vmc related to the stall speed?
The Army does not need a folding wing. Thus move also the carb air intake to the inboard of nacelles (also to be used on the Navy aircraft), and there is a better part of the outer wing available for fuel tanks. The P-38 acquired 2x55 gals using just a small part of the outer wing, in front of the main spar.
But then, the fuselage on the historical F7F does not look like devoted to maximizing fuel tankage (my red 'oval'):
If the 2-stage R-2800s can be installed, the performance would've surpased the historical F7F even in B series engines are used. If not - let's recall that early A-20s were clocked at 349 mph on the low powered R-2600 engines, and F7F was with thinner wing. The turn of speed of in-between A-20 and historical F7F - 380-390 mph - would not be so outrageous to expect.
Granted, the proposed changes would've needed to be done when the whole project is in early 'paper' stage.
BTW - the radar operator will have his night vision hampered due to glaring in the radar scopes, unlike what was the case with pilot.
I was also thinking of the use of new AI sets. Mk IV sets were delayed before they could fly over Eurpe and later they were for a period, the only sets allowed over Europe.I think Glider is thinking about the Meteor over Europe in WW2, tho they were eventually allowed.
...
The expected speed depends on altitude and time the estimate is made. The first production contract for the P-61 was placed in Sept of 1941. The P-61s engines were not fitted with water injection (and rated for WER) until the end of 1943 or the beginning of 1944.
Photo of P-61 air inlets:
<snip>
out board 3 slots (right of the heavy divider) are for the oil cooler. the rest of the outer slots and all the inner opening are for the carb and intercoolers. There was an intercooler on each side of the engine nacelle or partially in the wing/nacelle junction.
Two stage engines cannot be swapped in and out of designs as whim may take the design staff or purchasing agent. If you make the design tight like an F7F you may not have room for the intercoolers and ducting. Take them out of an existing design and you have empty wing/nacelle space (larger airframe than needed. Two stage engines can help considerably with performance at around 15-20,000ft and up. they hurt performance at lower altitudes, also note the 12 ft 2 in propeller. Without a doubt heavier than the 3 blade prop on the F7F.
P & W started work on the "C" series engine in 1940. the first flight of an F7F was in Nov of 1943, 17 months after the first flight of the P-61. At what point was P & W advanced enough in work on the "C" series to offer it as a viable engine to Grumman for the F7F project?
...
As to the second, perhaps night vision was impaired a bit but but then F4U and F6F night fighter pilots would have been in real trouble.
Thats it, a slightly odd looking aircraft in my eyesB45 is the one I think you mean. Long straight wing and 4 engines
I was also thinking of the use of new AI sets. Mk IV sets were delayed before they could fly over Eurpe and later they were for a period, the only sets allowed over Europe.
There were many examples of the Canberra being used for PR missions over europe during the cold war and attempted intercepts by Mig 15s always failed.
A few years ago there was a fascinating programme on this where a number of RAF pilots were interviewed. The one that stuck in my mind was a pilot who could see the mig 15's close but unable to get up to his altitude. However the Russian pilot was close enough to try a long range shot, He tried but when he fired, his aircraft stalled and he lost height allowing the Canberra to get away. Another mission was to take photos of a Russian site, close to Moscow in daylight. They were sure this would be a step too far but they got away with it.
One pilot posted to a joint USAF/RAF unit and he recalled that although none were shot down there were a couple of examples where the Russians were able to get close. I cannot remember the name of these aircraft but they had four engines and had rear guns. The main problem was the USAF aircraft could only operate from approx 36,000 ft whereas the Canberra used to operate at 54,000 ft
Another RAF pilot because of his experience was assigned to a USAAF unit flying the RB-47 and on at least one occaision the Russians got close enough for the crew to fire back at intercepting Migs. A story which he admitted might have grown with the telling, was a co pilot who fired back was told later that he had disobayed orders. His reply was that he would rather live to face the charge than die obaying them.