I found a decal sheet from Starfighter Decals showing F4F-3 4031 as the aircraft flown by LCDR Paul Ramsey, VF-2 CO, during the Battle of the Coral Sea. The sheet has a profile that shows that "LCDR. RAMSEY" was below the cockpit. I haven't seen F4Fs with names besides some for publicity purposes. Does anyone know if it is a fact or just an artist interpretation. I haven't seen any photos of 4031 marked as F-1 on Lexington, but then again, photos of Lexington aircraft from 1942 are rare to begin with.
Paul Ramsey F4F-3, Coral Sea
- Thread starter RWGWAG
- Start date
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RWGWAG,
I am willing to bet that the decals are based on profiles found in the Osprey book on VF-2 aces and not an actual picture. That publication and the decals both came out before the Lexington and a few of her aircraft were found on the bottom. While there were documents that clearly tracked the aircraft that VF-2 took to Coral Sea, the pics shed a new light on what they most likely looked like.
The F4F-3s assigned to VF-2 had been with VF-3 for most of the time since the attack on Pearl Harbor. When VF-3 was reequipped with F4F-4s, the older -3s were sent to VMF-212. VF-2 had traded in their F2A-3s for F4F-3As that VF-6 had discarded along with arrivals from the mainland, but it was decided to swap the -3As for the -3s that VMF-212 had. So at the last minute, VMF-212 and VF-2 swapped aircraft. Now, VMF-212 hadn't even bothered to remove the VF-3 markings and at least one of the aircraft that went to VF-2 and was at Coral Sea still had VF-3 side codes and insignia, along with the pilot's name and his mission markings.
I can not state beyond a doubt that every F4F-3 with VF-2 at Coral Sea was marked that way, but it is the only photo clearly showing how one of them way. And Jim is correct, names carried under the canopy appears to have been a common practice for both VF-2 and VF-3. The only question would be whether the aircraft marked "F-1" carried LtCmdr Paul Ramsay or LtCmdr John Thach!
Good luck
BW
I am willing to bet that the decals are based on profiles found in the Osprey book on VF-2 aces and not an actual picture. That publication and the decals both came out before the Lexington and a few of her aircraft were found on the bottom. While there were documents that clearly tracked the aircraft that VF-2 took to Coral Sea, the pics shed a new light on what they most likely looked like.
The F4F-3s assigned to VF-2 had been with VF-3 for most of the time since the attack on Pearl Harbor. When VF-3 was reequipped with F4F-4s, the older -3s were sent to VMF-212. VF-2 had traded in their F2A-3s for F4F-3As that VF-6 had discarded along with arrivals from the mainland, but it was decided to swap the -3As for the -3s that VMF-212 had. So at the last minute, VMF-212 and VF-2 swapped aircraft. Now, VMF-212 hadn't even bothered to remove the VF-3 markings and at least one of the aircraft that went to VF-2 and was at Coral Sea still had VF-3 side codes and insignia, along with the pilot's name and his mission markings.
I can not state beyond a doubt that every F4F-3 with VF-2 at Coral Sea was marked that way, but it is the only photo clearly showing how one of them way. And Jim is correct, names carried under the canopy appears to have been a common practice for both VF-2 and VF-3. The only question would be whether the aircraft marked "F-1" carried LtCmdr Paul Ramsay or LtCmdr John Thach!
Good luck
BW
- Thread starter
- #4
Thanks to both! I haven't seen many pics of VF-2 aircraft at all besides some F2A-2s. I wish there was more photography out there of VF-2.
To digress, I have also tried looking for pics of the VF-2 F2A-3s, specifically Ramsey's assigned aircraft, but have only seen a couple of self-portrait-type pictures with a few enlisted pilots (Firebaugh, Cheek, and Packard). I find their F2A-3s interesting because it seems they didn't have the cowlings painted blue-grey at first when they updated the paint schemes in October 41, and then the blue-grey got extended to the cowling, but not all the way, reminding me of VMF-211's F4Fs at Wake. I have identified F2A-3 BuNo 01531 being delivered as 2-F-1 though, so that was a nice discovery. At least to me, I feel Ramsey hasn't gotten the coverage the other prominent west coast fighter leaders did from 1941-42, especially with all that VF-2 went through. Happy holidays!
To digress, I have also tried looking for pics of the VF-2 F2A-3s, specifically Ramsey's assigned aircraft, but have only seen a couple of self-portrait-type pictures with a few enlisted pilots (Firebaugh, Cheek, and Packard). I find their F2A-3s interesting because it seems they didn't have the cowlings painted blue-grey at first when they updated the paint schemes in October 41, and then the blue-grey got extended to the cowling, but not all the way, reminding me of VMF-211's F4Fs at Wake. I have identified F2A-3 BuNo 01531 being delivered as 2-F-1 though, so that was a nice discovery. At least to me, I feel Ramsey hasn't gotten the coverage the other prominent west coast fighter leaders did from 1941-42, especially with all that VF-2 went through. Happy holidays!
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
A good (and amazing) example of early war assigned aircraft, is the discovery of Lt. Gaylor's F4F-3, of VF-3 that had been transferred to Lexington shortly before the Battle of Coral Sea.
In the deep-sea rover's photos of the Lexington's wreckage, are seen the well preserved Wildcat with VF-3's Felix the Cat insignia, Lt. Gaylor's aerial victory tally and his name below the cockpit (though partially obscured by encrustation).
(Photo credit: Paul Allen)
In the deep-sea rover's photos of the Lexington's wreckage, are seen the well preserved Wildcat with VF-3's Felix the Cat insignia, Lt. Gaylor's aerial victory tally and his name below the cockpit (though partially obscured by encrustation).
(Photo credit: Paul Allen)
- Thread starter
- #6
Could it be possible that Ramsey had his aircraft with the updated national insignia markings?
He reported flying in "Wildcat One" on his evening CAP mission on 7 May per page 132 Phil Keith's book Stay the Rising Sun: The True Story of the USS Lexington, Her Valiant Crew, and Changing the Course of WWII, Zenith Press, 2015
Maybe his Wildcat was not marked "F-1" but only had a number 1 on the side? I don't recall if that was in practice yet. One of the few Navy photos showing Lexington before she sunk in the battle shows F4F-3s and -3As on deck that sport the enlarged national insignia, along with white cowl numbers. Yorktown's fighters had black cowl numbers.
He reported flying in "Wildcat One" on his evening CAP mission on 7 May per page 132 Phil Keith's book Stay the Rising Sun: The True Story of the USS Lexington, Her Valiant Crew, and Changing the Course of WWII, Zenith Press, 2015
Maybe his Wildcat was not marked "F-1" but only had a number 1 on the side? I don't recall if that was in practice yet. One of the few Navy photos showing Lexington before she sunk in the battle shows F4F-3s and -3As on deck that sport the enlarged national insignia, along with white cowl numbers. Yorktown's fighters had black cowl numbers.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Lt. Gaylor's Wildcat had "F-5" on it and it was in white, the National insignia on the fuselage was the original size.
The Devestators of VT-2 had their numbers in white and the enlarged National insignia, as shown below.
So the Yorktown may not have modified their fighter's insignia by the time that some of VF-3 transferred aboard Lady Lex.
(Photo credit: Paul Allen)
The Devestators of VT-2 had their numbers in white and the enlarged National insignia, as shown below.
So the Yorktown may not have modified their fighter's insignia by the time that some of VF-3 transferred aboard Lady Lex.
(Photo credit: Paul Allen)
- Thread starter
- #8
Hmm. So if Ramsey's F-1 was 4031, it probably had the exact markings as it did when O'Hare flew it for his MoH mission, just with the 5 painted out of the 15 and without Felix. IIRC VF-2 had another F-15 that wasn't 4031 because Paul Baker was lost in it and 4031 survived the battle.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
How deep is the wreck? I wonder if any of those aircraft could be salvaged. U.S.S. Lexington was abandoned with most of her crew so would that site be considered a war grave?
I'd just like to see a TBD up close.
I'd just like to see a TBD up close.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Without getting wet.
F4F2F12021
Recruit
- 6
- Jun 23, 2022
I do disagree about 4031 not having Felix The Cat. F-5 is 3986, the former F-13. It still has Felix and the former pilot's name (Gayler) rather than the new pilot's (Vorse). Thus more than likely 4031 would have had the 5 of the F-15 painted off but kept O'Hare's victory markings, name and Felix like 3986 has. Both 3986 and 4031 were transferred to Fighting 2 the same day according to their history card. Also, while not 100 percent confirmed, I don't think Baker flew 2-F-15. While the basic report says he did, the Lexington deck log says it was 2-F-14. Someone who served on a carrier told me the deck log is to be taken above other documents.
Besides the deck log the Air Operations Officer also said 2-F-14.
Battle of the Coral Sea: U.S.S. Lexington--Action Report
Battle of Coral Sea: USS Lexington Action Report, Capt. Frederick Sherman to Adm. Chester A. Nimitz
www.ibiblio.org
Attachments
F4F2F12021
Recruit
- 6
- Jun 23, 2022
4031 would have looked like the War Thunder skin, I also made a 1/700 scale model of 4031 as 2-F-1 co-incidentally using Starfighter Decals. I put a "5" and painted it over with thinned paint so it can be faintly seen, as the overpainted "13" could be seen on F-5 (3986).
live.warthunder.com
WT Live // Camouflage by Monsterboy360
#warthunder #live_wt #workshop Skin requested by @keendad Hello! This aircraft was flown originally by Lt. Edward Henry “Butch “O’Hare who was originally part of VF-3. However, before the battle of the Coral Sea, the aircraft was transferred to Lexington\'s VF-2 Squadron. The squadron decals...
