PB4Y-1 gun installation VB-104 question

[Davecww1]

Looking for information on PB4Y-1 Liberators used by VB-104 on Guadalcanal in 1943.
I'm looking to build a model of PB4Y-1 bureau # 32081, B-24D-90-CO, AF serial number 42-40726. Question is, I know that the VB-104 aircraft had the Erco turrets installed in the extended nose, but I have been unable to find out what it used for the lower fuselage area. Seems options were a tunnel gun, radar dome or did they add ball turrets to these aircraft? Profile picture shows a ball turret but references show that the ball turrets were not standard until later production blocks.
Thanks
Dave

 

[fubar57]

Looked through "World War 2 in Review No. 29 - Consolidated's Naval Liberator and Privateer" It looks like some (all?) PB4Y-1s had retractable turrets. Earliest photo with time frame showing turret is summer of 1943

 

[fubar57]

Not getting better but from "In Detail - B-24 Liberator"

 

[MIflyer]

The book "Bombers in Blue" shows some PB4Y-1 with belly ball turrets but also says they were sometimes deleted.

In the 1973 book "Log of the Liberators" they describe an incident where a VB-104 PB4Y-1 pilot decided to sneak up on a Betty bomber landing at Nauru and shoot it down, only to arouse a swarm of Zeros and have to escape by flying very low over the water. The pilot forgot to raise the belly ball turret and the gunner got an excessively exciting ride.
Maybe I should scan and post that story.

So at least some VB-104 Libs at the 'Canal had ball turrets.

 

[MIflyer]

 

[MIflyer]

 

[Davecww1]

Thanks I have that book, will double check it this weekend!

 

[Davecww1]

View attachment 864959View attachment 864960

Excellent! Whit's Shits is the plane I'm going to model. Perhaps they added the ball turret the same time that they installed the Erco in the nose.

 

[MIflyer]

This is a neat sequence showing how a USAAF B-24D got converted to a PB4Y-1 with the ERCO turret (built in the same factory that built my airplane)>

 

[Davecww1]

This is a neat sequence showing how a USAAF B-24D got converted to a PB4Y-1 with the ERCO turret (built in the same factory that built my airplane)>

View attachment 864986

Great page of photos! 32048 was Captain Harry Sears aircraft, he was the commander of VB-104 for the first tour in 1943. What book did this come from? Looks to be continued on the next page, I wonder if they talked about adding ball turrets or radar pods, as both may have been added at North Island along with the nose turrets.

 

[mjfur]

32032 with radar pod.

32186

32212 and the aircraft behind it.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

B-24D-140 block 42-41138 to 41172 (35 aircraft) accepted in July 1943. According to Consolidated it was 42-41164 when retractable lower ball turrets become standard equipment on production B-24D airplanes

The USN started accepting B-24 direct from production in August/September 1942. Including transfers 1 D-1 and 5 D-5 from Fort Worth, 237 D-7 to D-135 from San Diego, then 7 D-140 and 28 D-145 to D-170.

A Thread for Data Files

B-24 production (acceptances), deliveries (delivery), distribution, details, designations, orders, serials, blocks, users Consolidated Field Service Bulletin summary

ww2aircraft.net

The USN was fighting an anti submarine war against the European Axis and a primarily anti shipping and bombing war against Japan, that tended to decide whether a ball and/or front turret and/or search radar were fitted, at least early. BuNo, Navy date, USAAF serial, USAAF date, model

32048 02-Apr-43 42-40561 29-Mar-43 B-24D-70-CO
32081 28-Apr-43 42-40726 28-Apr-43 B-24D-90-CO
32212 26-Sep-43 42-73214 26-Sep-43 B-24J-20-CO

 

[MIflyer]

What book did this come from? L

"Bombers in Blue" a rather thin but interesting book I bought about 25 years ago when I was working on an article about VPB-109, based on the experiences of a friend of mine, Bob Berry, which eventually resulted in the painting shown below. And no, the next page does not continue that sequence of photos.

In the Log of Libs book they mention that one PB4Y-1 on the 'Canal was equipped with the 37MM cannon from a P-39.

 

[EwenS]

ERCO bow turret
As noted in one of the above posts, it was the early experience of VP-51 / VB-101 that highlighted the need for an improved nose armament. Fitting the ERCO bow turret is attributed to Cdr Chick Haywood, CO of the Patrol Service Unit. The turrets themselves were initially sourced from PB2Y-2 Coronado flying boats. 14 were prepared for the deployment of VB-102 in April 1943.

Not all later PB4Y-1 received the ERCO turret. Some later aircraft retained the bow turret they came off the production line with. I've never found any logic to which ones got the ERCO turret and which did not.


Belly turret
Atlantic squadrons received aircraft with the radar pod in place of the turret - mostly. A few early PB4Y-1 based on the B-24D airframe received the "Dumbo" nose radome under the nose.

Ginter has a note that "By 31 July 1944 out of 657 PB4Y-1/1Ps delivered, 155 had their ball turrets removed. As of 1 Auguat 1944 BuAer ordered all future PB4Y-1s to be completed without the ball turret."

The above was extracted from Steve Ginter's Naval Fighters Number 105 "Consolidated PB4Y-1/1P".

 

[MIflyer]

By the way, the leaky front turret on Lancaster bombers led the RAF to remove the turret later in the war. I guess it was relatively rare to be able to shoot at a night fighter with the front turret, anyway. But look how well that ERCO turret seals to the nose. When my friend Bob Berry's PB4Y-2 suffered hits from a head-on pass by a George II fighter, the top plexiglas of the turret was blown off, but once the stunned gunner recovered from the shock he went right back to fighting.

"Not all later PB4Y-1 received the ERCO turret. Some later aircraft retained the bow turret they came off the production line with. I've never found any logic to which ones got the ERCO turret and which did not."

The Bombers in Blue book points out that some PB4Y-1 even had a B-24 tail turret grafted onto the nose. The ERCO turret also was used on the Martin PBM and I guess there were not always enough to go around.

 

[EwenS]

By the way, the leaky front turret on Lancaster bombers led the RAF to remove the turret later in the war. I guess it was relatively rare to be able to shoot at a night fighter with the front turret, anyway.

Only from a relatively few aircraft.

The last Lancaster version to be built was the Mk.VII that rolled off the production line between April and December 1945 still fitted with the FN5A turret in the nose. Apparently the most effective solution found to minimise the draught were tarred canvas flaps.

The Lancaster B.I (Special) produced in 1945 had both the front and mid-upper turrets removed as part of weight saving measures to allow them to carry the 22,000lb Grand Slam. Some of the Lancaster VI (10 built) had their front turret removed in their pathfinder role or as test beds with Rolls Royce. Other than that front turret removal was limited. Michael J F Bowyer, the author, noted seeing aircraft from 7 & 97 squadrons at Bourn in April 1944 with the forward turrets faired over. Both were operating in the pathfinder role at the time. They were however hastily refitted when Bomber Command began flying daylight operations (from July in support of the armies in Normandy and as part of the BC daylight bomber offensive against Germany from Aug).

Post war all the turrets were removed from the Lancaster PR.I used for photo recce and mapping from mid-1946 into the 1950s.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The painting is of course of PB4Y-2, the turrets for just the USAAF B-24 is a whole other topic.
B-24G-1 and later Emerson nose turret, A.5 auto pilot (first 25G models were G-0)
B-24H Emerson nose turret, A.5 auto pilot
B-24J-CO, FW Nose turret Emerson, MPC-4 or CVAC 5800-3, with C-1 auto pilot, except for FW block 401 which were knock downs from Ford
B-24J-FO,DT,NT Emerson nose turret, C-1 auto pilot
B-24L Replaces tail turret with hand held guns
B-24M Replaces hand held guns with A-6C Tail Turret

Notes on contract 40033 S.O. = Sales order
S.O. 858-348 of 10 Jul 44, Airplanes delivered by CVAC without tail turret will be B-24L, by Ford will be B-24M, by NAA will be B-24N. Ford production of B-24 with single tail and -75 engines will be B-24P, prototype designated YB-24K
S.O. 858-343-1 of 19 Aug 44 cancelled 1,032 B-24 from contract 40033. S.O. 858-344 of 7 Jul 44 stated aircraft modified at Tucson would no longer be finally accepted from San Diego but would be accepted and delivered from Tucson, with 44-41203 the first delivery.
S.O. 858-348-1 of 25 Jul 44 changed designation from B-24J to B-24L at CVAC 5326 serial 44-41390. First airplane delivered with the tail turret deleted for Modification Centre installation of hand held or Bell power boost tail gun installation (MCR466) shall be B-24L. Change is production deletion of tail turret, not installation of hand held or power boost guns. All paperwork will be modified to call for B-24L effective with CVAC number 5385 serial 44-41449,
in the interim between CVAC 5326 and 5384 Tucson will modify all paperwork required on subject airplanes to make them acceptable as B-24L.

All navy airplanes are to be designated B-24L but will receive tail turret until such time as it becomes necessary to modify the fuselage to accomplish San Diego production version of hand held or Bell power boost.
The installation of the -7 tail turret will be accomplished by San Diego effective with 5743, 44-41807. This will change model designation from B-24L to B-24M.

S.O. 858-388-1 of 1 Sep 44 cancelled Bell power boost and hand held gun installations and provided for light weight -7 Southern Aircraft A-6C tail turret, MCR466H, this will change designation from B-24L to B-24M, to begin with CVAC 5743, serial 44-41807.

Omitted section from earlier message,

By end July 1944 there had been 26 PB4Y-2 acceptances.

There was a 2 week pause in PB4Y-1 acceptances/deliveries end July 1944, of the 657 PB4Y-1 acceptances there were 278 B-24D, 1 G, 367 J and 11 L with the later D and all J and L built with ball turrets.