pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
believe they were already dumping the Spits prior to end of war in favour of 51 because of range issue , 2 squadrons had already converted by end of war in ETO
Post-War Racers?
- Thread starter gjs238
- Start date
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MikeGazdik
Senior Airman
McMillian's post proves that the P-39 Airacobra is THE supreme fighter of the war!!!!!!! 
GregP
Major
I think the P-39 would have been very good if Bell had been allowed to finish development of the turbocharged version.
The P-63 could give a Mustang all it could handle at any altitude with the Allison G-6 in it.
The P-63 could give a Mustang all it could handle at any altitude with the Allison G-6 in it.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I liked the P-63D
chris mcmillin
Airman
Yeah, yeah, Greg. Warbirds, warbirds...
But why don't you have Steve or Johnny whip out some pictures of when the Museum actually OWNED Cobra II/KF-1!!!???
Chris...
GregP
Major
I've seen those pics and they are wonderful. I wish we still had a P-39 and a P-63.
Ah well ... Ed Maloney sold the Cobra to Mike Carol and he crashed it on a test flight. It happens. Unfortunate, but it does happen.
The Planes of Fame also had a Hellcat crash years back, and there was no reason for it. The flight should never have been attempted in the weather that was happening at the time.
But the pilot in command makes the decisions when he is flying it, not the museum or the aircraft owner. Suffice to say we have procedures in place that preclude flying our warbirds in any but severe clear VFR weather these days. There is NO reason to go IFR in a WWII warbird (other than for higher altitude fuel consumption reasons on a long flight) unless you get caught in it while airborn. If you do, then you should have landed at the first sign of deteroriating conditions. The instruments are reliable, but are older and the warbird does NOT have to BE somehwere at risk of both itself and the pilot. Better to miss or be late for an airshow than to crash trying to get there! Warbird glide performance does NOT mimick a Piper Cub.
Ah well ... Ed Maloney sold the Cobra to Mike Carol and he crashed it on a test flight. It happens. Unfortunate, but it does happen.
The Planes of Fame also had a Hellcat crash years back, and there was no reason for it. The flight should never have been attempted in the weather that was happening at the time.
But the pilot in command makes the decisions when he is flying it, not the museum or the aircraft owner. Suffice to say we have procedures in place that preclude flying our warbirds in any but severe clear VFR weather these days. There is NO reason to go IFR in a WWII warbird (other than for higher altitude fuel consumption reasons on a long flight) unless you get caught in it while airborn. If you do, then you should have landed at the first sign of deteroriating conditions. The instruments are reliable, but are older and the warbird does NOT have to BE somehwere at risk of both itself and the pilot. Better to miss or be late for an airshow than to crash trying to get there! Warbird glide performance does NOT mimick a Piper Cub.
chris mcmillin
Airman
FlyBoyJ,
Nice looking, huh! Reminds me of Larry Havens Crazy Horse King Cobra. The elimination of the doors did a lot to stiffen the fuselage and allow more torque on the racer. Tipsy Miss was always breaking windshields and the like.
I thought when I first posted here that the thread was for the post-war 1946-1949 period. The later Reno period is a lot different with field elevation being one huge game changer.
Chris...
Nice looking, huh! Reminds me of Larry Havens Crazy Horse King Cobra. The elimination of the doors did a lot to stiffen the fuselage and allow more torque on the racer. Tipsy Miss was always breaking windshields and the like.
I thought when I first posted here that the thread was for the post-war 1946-1949 period. The later Reno period is a lot different with field elevation being one huge game changer.
Chris...
chris mcmillin
Airman
What was great about Cobra II was that it was bellied in, recovered and put in a hangar for 15 years and not even really messed with. Still had the 1948 paint. Really cool.
Chris...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
GregP
Major
Back in the old days, before the modern Reno, the P-63 flown by Tex Johnston had some interesting modifications. In the Thompson Trophy Race (I believe in 1946 or 1947), you were timed from liftoff ... so Tex installed 12-Volt motors in his 24-Volt system for the landing gear, and they snapped up in about 1/3 the time of a stock P-63 gear retraction ... but you ran the risk of a gear motor nurnout. Fortunately he didn't have one. But he was WAY ahead when he experienced a magneto failure and dropped ot of the race.
But he was kicking a$$ when he had the mag failure ...
But he was kicking a$$ when he had the mag failure ...
cleaning it up for speed did nothing for its looks !
chris mcmillin
Airman
Well, that's one reporters opinion. I think it looked absolutely awesome. Being at the 1971 race as an impressionable 12 year old, I can assure you it was many peoples favorite.
One of the real disappointments of Larry Havens' P-63 was the fact that the intake air through the oil cooler inlets made a 270 degree turn to get into the downdraft carb of the Allison. It'd been better if they'd left the dorsal scoop on it for the Allison, because of the loss of ram pressure rise that would be beneficial to the Allison at the 5000 altitude of the Reno racing environment. Knowing this, the plan was to install a Merlin with it's updraft carb and better supercharging and Larry had bought one and Dave Zueschel was interested in hot-rodding one for it and adapting it to the airframe. The airplane went 369 over 10 laps which was OK for an Allison at that altitude, but it really needed the manifold pressure boost of at least the better air scoop as designed by Bell, and at best a better supercharger. The Merlin could've been the key to the power needed to get the King Cobra to competitive speeds (then about 420 mph). Unfortunately the airplane was lost to a test flight engine failure when an induction backfire pushed some ductwork to interfere with the primary flight controls and Larry bailed out over the Pacific just off of Los Angeles Harbor. The wing of this airplane was Charlie Tuckers '49 Thompson "Easter Egg" which was his '46 Bendix airplane also, several other components of the airplane were used too, as well as the Frank Singer racer. The airplane was a composite of post-war racer airframes and components collected by Darryl Greenamyer to attempt a world speed record. Greenamyer sold it off after becoming so successful with his Conquest 1 Bearcat.
I recall several stabilizers/elevators/rudders of various paint colors in a loft at Van Nuys during the storage of the King Cobra that was to become the Frank Borman/Square 1 restoration. Wonder if they were from that Greenamyer collection?
An interesting racing fact is the performance of Charlie Tucker's nearly stock Allison engine powerplants in his modestly modified P-63's were the fastest at 393 and 394, of any of the King Cobra racers, post-war or modern racing era. We'll probably never see another Bell racer, as two of the post-war racers were destroyed when operated as warbirds, Tipsy Miss in 1990 and Frank Singers (composite) in 1994. Nevertheless they are interesting and make for a different looking layout than the typical P-51 racer.
Think of this, had Mike Carroll's Cobra II/KF-1 been test flown by Darryl Greenamyer or Lyle Shelton, and it survived until 1972, and Larry Havens airplane survived it's test flight pre-Reno 1972, there would have been four Bell racers at Reno in 1972. Cobra III, Crazy Horse, Mr. Mennen, and Tipsy Miss, two P-39's and 2 P-63's. That would've been a good looking racing ramp.
One of the real disappointments of Larry Havens' P-63 was the fact that the intake air through the oil cooler inlets made a 270 degree turn to get into the downdraft carb of the Allison. It'd been better if they'd left the dorsal scoop on it for the Allison, because of the loss of ram pressure rise that would be beneficial to the Allison at the 5000 altitude of the Reno racing environment. Knowing this, the plan was to install a Merlin with it's updraft carb and better supercharging and Larry had bought one and Dave Zueschel was interested in hot-rodding one for it and adapting it to the airframe. The airplane went 369 over 10 laps which was OK for an Allison at that altitude, but it really needed the manifold pressure boost of at least the better air scoop as designed by Bell, and at best a better supercharger. The Merlin could've been the key to the power needed to get the King Cobra to competitive speeds (then about 420 mph). Unfortunately the airplane was lost to a test flight engine failure when an induction backfire pushed some ductwork to interfere with the primary flight controls and Larry bailed out over the Pacific just off of Los Angeles Harbor. The wing of this airplane was Charlie Tuckers '49 Thompson "Easter Egg" which was his '46 Bendix airplane also, several other components of the airplane were used too, as well as the Frank Singer racer. The airplane was a composite of post-war racer airframes and components collected by Darryl Greenamyer to attempt a world speed record. Greenamyer sold it off after becoming so successful with his Conquest 1 Bearcat.
I recall several stabilizers/elevators/rudders of various paint colors in a loft at Van Nuys during the storage of the King Cobra that was to become the Frank Borman/Square 1 restoration. Wonder if they were from that Greenamyer collection?
An interesting racing fact is the performance of Charlie Tucker's nearly stock Allison engine powerplants in his modestly modified P-63's were the fastest at 393 and 394, of any of the King Cobra racers, post-war or modern racing era. We'll probably never see another Bell racer, as two of the post-war racers were destroyed when operated as warbirds, Tipsy Miss in 1990 and Frank Singers (composite) in 1994. Nevertheless they are interesting and make for a different looking layout than the typical P-51 racer.
Think of this, had Mike Carroll's Cobra II/KF-1 been test flown by Darryl Greenamyer or Lyle Shelton, and it survived until 1972, and Larry Havens airplane survived it's test flight pre-Reno 1972, there would have been four Bell racers at Reno in 1972. Cobra III, Crazy Horse, Mr. Mennen, and Tipsy Miss, two P-39's and 2 P-63's. That would've been a good looking racing ramp.
MikeGazdik
Senior Airman
Oh man that is one awesome Kingcobra!! And the history from McMillin is great!! I remember seeing 2 or 3 Airacobra Airframes either recovered in Russia or Alaska, back in the late 90's down at the Akron "MAPS" Museum. Wonder what happened to them. Someone on this site needs to hit the lotto, build up an Airacobra and get Gregp's shop to put in a killer Allison!!
i always like the P-39/P-63's looks and the changes made sure make it look built for speed and well suited to the purpose and your right it still looks pretty awsome !
chris mcmillin
Airman
Tex Johnston raced a P-39, Cobra II, in 1946. It was the one the Museum owned later. It was the sister to Jack Woolams' Cobra I. It was top qualifier at 409 and won the race at 373. It led from start to finish. Tex never raced again, and never raced a P-63.
Cobra II was third in 1947 flown by Jay Demming, another Bell test pilot.
It was flown by Allison test pilot Chuck Brown in the '48 race, top qualifier again at 418 and was forced out on the last lap by a vapor lock after a cowling panel blew off.
Chris...
jimh
Senior Airman
Cook Cleland and his Corsairs dominated Cleveland and its truely a blessing that Bob Odegaard resurrected these great airframes. Beguine has to be one of the most beautiful incarnations of a racing Mustang ever built. I believe if Greenamyer hadn't given his Bearcat to the NASM it would still be the one to beat. I wish I could have witnessed the races during the 40's and mid 70's...good times!
jim
This is Anson Johnson's P-51 as she sits in storage at Bradley
jim
This is Anson Johnson's P-51 as she sits in storage at Bradley
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chris mcmillin
Airman
Cook had the right idea with the Super Corsairs, but he was lucky as well as fast. KF-1/Cobra II was leading the '48 race from the start and Cook and Dick blew their scoops off running the Cobra down. Cleveland dominance? Maybe, but it would've been even had Brown been able to make the last lap in'48, 2 Bell wins to 2 Goodyear wins. Instead it's 2 Goodyear wins, 1 NAA win and 1 Bell win. Also Cobra II/KF-1 was top qualifier in '46 and '48.
I see that N13Y is safe and sound in exactly the same condition as it was 15 years ago when I took some startlingly similar photos! Winner of the '48 race, inherited from Brown after the vapor lock, #74 won the '47 Thompson, so they are the only survivors, Cobra II crashing and Cook stupidly allowing the fire department to burn and bulldoze #94.
Thanks for those, good to keep up to date.
Chris...
I see that N13Y is safe and sound in exactly the same condition as it was 15 years ago when I took some startlingly similar photos! Winner of the '48 race, inherited from Brown after the vapor lock, #74 won the '47 Thompson, so they are the only survivors, Cobra II crashing and Cook stupidly allowing the fire department to burn and bulldoze #94.
Thanks for those, good to keep up to date.
Chris...
chris mcmillin
Airman
Also consider the formulas, sport and jet class as well. Super sport racers are flying at speeds some of the warbirds did just a few years ago at half the horse power!!! There's been a lot done in those other classes and although we admire and love WW2 fighters going around the pylons, true air race fans should appreciate ALL classes.
Current Reno course speed record holder, all classes
Dick Laidlaw averaged 636 at Mojave around the 15 mile course in 1974. He used a Sabre 6. I'm sure Mr. Personality could do better, of course.
Chris...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
If he was on the same course with the same aircraft - you betcha. Be advised however we would have thrown a mouse in the tailpipe and would have pushed 650.
Remember, swept wing aircraft are not allowed at Reno!!!!
GregP
Major
Came across some info in the Cobra I and Cobra II.
Mira Slovak said that he ran a P-51H propeller on a P-39 and almost could not control it. When he tried to turn right, it wanted to do an outside snap roll to the left. After several atttempts, he wound up turning left and landing as quickly as possible. Seems the 4-bladed P-51H prop had a lot more blade area than the 3-blade stock prop, and the increase in surface area forward of the CL could not be handled by the P-39 tail. He is pretty sure that's what killed Mike Carol ... the extra area forward of the CL simply overpowered the tail surfaces of the P-39. If he had used a P-63, he'd have been OK since it was designed for a lot more power and HAD it in late models.
Our shop has a 100-series Allison in the CAF P-63 at San Marcos and it is running and flying just fine. We COULD install an aux blower (we have two), but they aren't wanting one.
The old Cobra II was flown by Lefty Gardner before it crashed and he had this to say to Joe Yancey (they were good friends).
When Lefty flew it at Reno, he said the Allison G-6 horsepower was awesome, and the driveshaft bowed over a foot and half under his seat! It was not designed for the power being used (the P-63 driveshaft WAS). He said it was far and away the fastest-accelerating aircraft he had ever flown until a mag let go and he decided to land on the remaining mag rather than risk losing both. He said it flew "OK but not great due to limited control surface authority" but was very torquey and needed careful handling when at full rattle with the G-6 engine of about 2,850 HP+. When he landed, he was fast enough to have been a half lap ahead of the eventual winner that year.
That data from Joe Yancey after the nice article in a warbird magazine about the Cobra I and II this month. In fact, Joe will be missing from the shop tomorrow due to having to be in Palm Springs to work on THEIR Kingcobra that has issues with either simply a mag or something more serious. We hope it is just a mag. If not, it could be an easily fix or overhaul time ... we won't know until we get there. Mostly, their engine seemed healthy last time was saw it, so Joe's thinking it could be a mag only at this time. More data after the visit ...
Mira Slovak said that he ran a P-51H propeller on a P-39 and almost could not control it. When he tried to turn right, it wanted to do an outside snap roll to the left. After several atttempts, he wound up turning left and landing as quickly as possible. Seems the 4-bladed P-51H prop had a lot more blade area than the 3-blade stock prop, and the increase in surface area forward of the CL could not be handled by the P-39 tail. He is pretty sure that's what killed Mike Carol ... the extra area forward of the CL simply overpowered the tail surfaces of the P-39. If he had used a P-63, he'd have been OK since it was designed for a lot more power and HAD it in late models.
Our shop has a 100-series Allison in the CAF P-63 at San Marcos and it is running and flying just fine. We COULD install an aux blower (we have two), but they aren't wanting one.
The old Cobra II was flown by Lefty Gardner before it crashed and he had this to say to Joe Yancey (they were good friends).
When Lefty flew it at Reno, he said the Allison G-6 horsepower was awesome, and the driveshaft bowed over a foot and half under his seat! It was not designed for the power being used (the P-63 driveshaft WAS). He said it was far and away the fastest-accelerating aircraft he had ever flown until a mag let go and he decided to land on the remaining mag rather than risk losing both. He said it flew "OK but not great due to limited control surface authority" but was very torquey and needed careful handling when at full rattle with the G-6 engine of about 2,850 HP+. When he landed, he was fast enough to have been a half lap ahead of the eventual winner that year.
That data from Joe Yancey after the nice article in a warbird magazine about the Cobra I and II this month. In fact, Joe will be missing from the shop tomorrow due to having to be in Palm Springs to work on THEIR Kingcobra that has issues with either simply a mag or something more serious. We hope it is just a mag. If not, it could be an easily fix or overhaul time ... we won't know until we get there. Mostly, their engine seemed healthy last time was saw it, so Joe's thinking it could be a mag only at this time. More data after the visit ...
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