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I submit the alluded-to Fw 190 / Ta 152 with the BMW 803 would have been an entirely new and larger aircraft that never even made the drawing board, much less had metal cut for it. I would view any suggestion of flying a standard Fw 190 or Ta 152 with a BMW 803 as being unrealistic to say the least, but the potential for a heavy fighter was certainly there, as far as a powerplant goes, when the war ended. Things might have gotten interesting if this dreamed-of fighter had ever gotten into production. Of course, by then, other more advanced piston fighters were flying for other countries and most were rapidly being abandoned for jets. Some were even built and never flown!
I submit the Third Reich would have done the same and concentrated on jets, had it survived past early 1945.
Any comments on the potential future of big pistons in mid-to late 1945 had the war continued?
Greg, where did you get the info for a 4000hp Fw190?
The Fw 190 started life with a BMW 139 radial, descended from the BMW 132. It was 55.4 liters, developed 1,550 HP, and suffered from rear row cooling inadequacy, and many other two or more row radials did.
The Fw 190 A/B/C/F sported a BMW 801 radial. The 801 introduced fuel injection, a compressor, and a "brain box" that controlled everything with a single lever. The dry weight was 2,667 pounds and developed 1,600 HP for takeoff with a continuous power rating of 1,280 HP. The "A" version ran clockwise; the "B" ran counterclockwise. Overall diameter was 51.5 inches. Fuel consumption at rated power (1,280 HP) was 55 gph. The engine was progressively improved to 1,700 HP for takeoff and then to 2,000 HP for takeoff. The "E" model went to 2,270 HP for takeoff with water / methanol injection, but that didn't last for very long after takeoff.
The Fw 190 D sported a Junkers Jumo 213, mostly the "E".
The Ta 152 sported the Jumo 213E and 222 as wella s the DB 603.
The Ta 152H sported a Jumo 213 E/F that weighed in, as specified above, at about 1,808 pounds dry. The Ta 152 C also had a Jumo (213A) of about the same weight except for the C-0 and C-1, which had a DB 603L powerplant (see above). Cone C models had a Jumo 222 wich made 2,465 HP for takeoff and 1,870 HP at cruise. It had a dry weight of 2,399 pounds.]
I submit the Third Reich would have done the same and concentrated on jets, had it survived past early 1945.
Any comments on the potential future of big pistons in mid-to late 1945 had the war continued?
A slightly enlarged version was the DB 603E with a continuous rating of 1,560 HP and a dry weight of 2,050 pounds.
The [BMW-801]"E" model went to 2,270 HP for takeoff with water / methanol injection, but that didn't last for very long after takeoff.
Hi Vincenzo,
This thread was intended to address the rumored 4,000 HP Fw 190 (maybe Ta 152?). It was never going to be so. You cannot install an engine of twice the power and 4 times the weight into an airframe and expect to fly it.
The "twice the power" part could possibly be done, especially if only for takeoff, if the tail (especially the rudder and fin) and wing surfaces are suitably increased in size for control, but 4 times the weight cannot be done in a single engine fighter without extreme modification to the point that the airframe is basically not the same. Either the wing has to be moved forward or the firewall has to moved backward until the result is a new aircraft.
I will not look up or challenge your engine expertise. I acccept it since the engine is not the 9,000+ pound monster BMW 803 that never flew. What I was trying to say is that the plane that could have been constructed for a BMW 803 could not be anything like the Fw 190 or Ta 152 .... it had to be bigger and of fundamentally different layout and construction.
The USA had an experimental engine, too. It was the Lycoming 7755. 7,750 cubic inches and no potential airframe in sight when the war ended. But it DID run and still exists in a museum in the USA. Doesn't mean it would ever have flown in a fighter. It was abandoned for the jet engine and only existed as a prototype, like the BMW 803.
An R-3350 is impressive enough! I'd love to see a BMW 803 today, as I'd love to see the R-7755 in person, too.
Well iirc the DB 603-powered Ta 152 C was in production when the war ended with one or two delivered, but I'd hardly count that.
Two two-stage DB 605s were tried: One was apparently simply not worth the effort (DB 628, quite the odd design) and the other didn't make it in time (DB605 L, earmarked for late Bf 109 K variants). IMO this wasn't the horse for Germany to bet on, they should've introduced more ADI boosted "normal" DB 605s instead, which seems to have worked quite well and much earlier in the war. And follow with DB 603 and Jumo 213 powered Fw 190s / Ta 152s.
I doubt anyone actually needed fighters (especially not single seaters) powered 2500-3000 hp piston engines. The little top-speed that is gained over the 2000-2500 hp fighters seems to be in no good relation to the increased fuel consumption, weight and size and the downsides that come with that. Plus jets are just around the corner or already there, really.
Should've more generally said use of injection systems. If N2O was used, BMW801s used on high altitude recons were able to produce 1,410 hp instead of 868 hp.The two-stage supercharging gives power when where it was needed: second half of the war, ETO, at 25000 ft (+-). The ADI, or MW-50 was indeed used on DB-605A (= DB-605AM), but there was still no gain at altitudes where USAF was throwing in it's bombers their escorts, since the ADI was of use below no-ADI full throttle heigh. Same thing was with BMW-801D, that was using fuel injection as ADI.
I'd appreciate the more elaborate input re. DB-628, particularly why we would call the 628 as not worth it, or that is an odd design.
Greg, no Ta 152 was ever fitted with a Jumo 222. At best there were conceptional drawings. Even those I have not seen.Touche, Vincenzo. As far as I know, the Fw 190C had a DB603G with Hirth turbo blower (a great feal of problems with it). So, you are correct. The Ta 152C-3 had a DB 603LA. The Ta 152C for low altitude work had a Jumo 222 AB/3 or E/F engine.