Prop Parts at FAAM

[Larrythepilot]

The Freeman Army Airfield Museum has a storage room (used to house a coal furnace) that we call the Dig Room. It is where we store WWII aircraft parts that were dug up at Freeman Army Airfield in the late 90's, and some from 2008-2013, that have not yet been cleaned up/identified. Many of the parts you folks have helped to identify came out of that room. With the identification of the hydraulic operating cylinder for a Mk 9 Spitfire a couple of weeks ago, we have become interested in some other propeller parts. We have just begun to clean them up, and they are not yet ready for prime time in terms of finding numbers on them. However, we wonder if just the images of the uncleaned parts would rings any bells in the minds of you folks with a a lot of experience in these matters. Please have a look at the attached pictures, and let us know if you recognize any of these parts. Thanks.

 

[SaparotRob]

It's a dirty job and I'm glad you're doing it!

 

[Larrythepilot]

Well, this is a first for me. I have never before posted pictures of a part, and then not gotten a single response telling me more about the item in question. Is it a seasonal thing? Forum viewers are too busy with the holidays to worry about obscure WWII propellers? I was hoping that somebody would recognize the steel "base" (??) of the propeller, and perhaps the number 7508 would mean something to someone. Our museum president, Joe Clegg, sent me a message asking if I had heard anything. I told him nope, nothing, except for SaparotBob's words of encouragement. If any of you have time for a second look, we sure would appreciate it.

I hope you all have a good Christmas.

Larry

 

[Snautzer01]

Well, this is a first for me. I have never before posted pictures of a part, and then not gotten a single response telling me more about the item in question. Is it a seasonal thing? Forum viewers are too busy with the holidays to worry about obscure WWII propellers? I was hoping that somebody would recognize the steel "base" (??) of the propeller, and perhaps the number 7508 would mean something to someone. Our museum president, Joe Clegg, sent me a message asking if I had heard anything. I told him nope, nothing, except for SaparotBob's words of encouragement. If any of you have time for a second look, we sure would appreciate it.

I hope you all have a good Christmas.

Larry

Ho ho ho.... and ho. And another festive ho.

Not getting an answer overhere does not mean nobody cares.

It can be that not enough is offered picture wise or you have a very rare piece.

Or perhaps one hasnt seen this thread. Yes we have a busy communion here.

So it also your own resposibility. You know... to get and keep interest.

It not a quarter machine.
Pop a penny and answers will follow. Ney, it is not.

Now, as you are, i think well aware of, there are some here that know a bit about parts.
So get intrest in a tad more fruitfull manner. I for one is not getting in guildtrip mode.

So just be a pal and ask again some questions to get attention.
We friends here. We like planes and bits of them. For sure if a member knows he/she will answer.

 

[Larrythepilot]

Yes, Snautzer, exactly. The knowledgeable members of this forum have helped our museum many times over the 4 years I have been posting here. That's why I was so surprised that nobody replied to my original inquiry. It always seems that somebody knows something. Maybe I'm spoiled by past success! ..... Perhaps it is as you say; there just isn't enough information to get anybody started. I'll have to examine the propeller part further, clean it up some more, and see what else I can find. There may be additional numbers under the crud. I was in hopes that someone would recognize the style/shape of the ferrule (the part that goes into the hub).

Since you are a self-proclaimed picture hoarder, here is one for you that was made possible by information provided by Engineman, a few months back. Eng identified a set of engine valves as being from a DB-605. I then build a display rack, created an exhibit sign, and put the valves in the display we have of related engine parts. Here's what it looks like, all together.

Merry Christmas from Seymour, Indiana, USA.

Larry

 

[SaparotRob]

Yes, Snautzer, exactly. The knowledgeable members of this forum have helped our museum many times over the 4 years I have been posting here. That's why I was so surprised that nobody replied to my original inquiry. It always seems that somebody knows something. Maybe I'm spoiled by past success! ..... Perhaps it is as you say; there just isn't enough information to get anybody started. I'll have to examine the propeller part further, clean it up some more, and see what else I can find. There may be additional numbers under the crud. I was in hopes that someone would recognize the style/shape of the ferrule (the part that goes into the hub).

Since you are a self-proclaimed picture hoarder, here is one for you that was made possible by information provided by Engineman, a few months back. Eng identified a set of engine valves as being from a DB-605. I then build a display rack, created an exhibit sign, and put the valves in the display we have of related engine parts. Here's what it looks like, all together.

Merry Christmas from Seymour, Indiana, USA.

Larry

Merry Christmas, bro'!

 

[Snautzer01]

Yes, Snautzer, exactly. The knowledgeable members of this forum have helped our museum many times over the 4 years I have been posting here. That's why I was so surprised that nobody replied to my original inquiry. It always seems that somebody knows something. Maybe I'm spoiled by past success! ..... Perhaps it is as you say; there just isn't enough information to get anybody started. I'll have to examine the propeller part further, clean it up some more, and see what else I can find. There may be additional numbers under the crud. I was in hopes that someone would recognize the style/shape of the ferrule (the part that goes into the hub).

Since you are a self-proclaimed picture hoarder, here is one for you that was made possible by information provided by Engineman, a few months back. Eng identified a set of engine valves as being from a DB-605. I then build a display rack, created an exhibit sign, and put the valves in the display we have of related engine parts. Here's what it looks like, all together.

Merry Christmas from Seymour, Indiana, USA.

Larry

I followed that one. Even reacted to.

Make no mistake i am not a novice in i.d. ing parts of german types.

Or got ask to help in countries beyond.
It can be very time consuming.
When noticed parts i had id got on eBay i stopped doing that on public fora.

Here in Holland quite a few ww2 planes crashed.
So one can get the expierence in.

Anyway hope the prop get sorted.

 

[MiTasol]

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/members/michael-hope.69852/ is probably your best hope of identifying those prop parts in their current condition.

I am sure he will reply if he recognises them.

 

[Michael Hope]

I have never seen a four bladed hub like that. I recently have seen a two bladed hub that is slightly similar on a German engine.

 

[Larrythepilot]

I haven't been spending very much time at our museum lately, but I'll be there tomorrow, and I believe I will see the 2 guys who are working on these prop cleaning and ID projects. I will ask them to do more cleaning on the parts, with the hope of finding more numbers and/or other markings that will help. Thanks, Michael. And Merry Christmas.

Larry

 

[Engineman]

The Freeman Army Airfield Museum has a storage room (used to house a coal furnace) that we call the Dig Room. It is where we store WWII aircraft parts that were dug up at Freeman Army Airfield in the late 90's, and some from 2008-2013, that have not yet been cleaned up/identified. Many of the parts you folks have helped to identify came out of that room. With the identification of the hydraulic operating cylinder for a Mk 9 Spitfire a couple of weeks ago, we have become interested in some other propeller parts. We have just begun to clean them up, and they are not yet ready for prime time in terms of finding numbers on them. However, we wonder if just the images of the uncleaned parts would rings any bells in the minds of you folks with a a lot of experience in these matters. Please have a look at the attached pictures, and let us know if you recognize any of these parts. Thanks.

Hi Larry,

I am sorry that I do not have info on your 4-bladed prop hub you show. It is distinctive, split type with that "Maltese-cross" cut-away and spider, probably someone can help?
The laminated wooden blade has some similarity to Rotol blade roots with the style of steel root fitting with the fine thread. The number(s) on it would probably help a specialist if
they are complete?
Great to see your DB 601/605 Grouping! I think we discussed the Golden/Yellow no1 Bearing cap before? That Bearing cap is probably DB 601 E/F but I cannot quite see the stamped numbers on the top to define which. Can you picture it again please? Just to say, the earlier DB 600/601 A/N bearing cap is quite different in detail. The Bearing cap shown is the later DB 601 E/F or DB 605 which is what that is, the DB 601 E/F being a complete re-design of the earlier engine.

Best wishes for Christmas!

Eng

 

[Larrythepilot]

We had our monthly museum board meeting last evening. I reported to the board the just the pictures of the propeller parts, and the one 4-digit number on the wooden prop base ring, were not sufficient information to yield even a guess as to the real identification of these parts. I told the 2 people working on this that they will need to do further cleaning, and try to find additional markings and numbers for the forum experts to work with. Thanks for trying.

I thought I had a good stand-alone picture of the bearing cap, which clearly showed all the numbers, but I sure can't find it. I'll have to take another one.

Merry Christmas.

Larry

 

[MiTasol]

And a Merry Christmas to you and the team at the Museum.

 

[Engineman]

We had our monthly museum board meeting last evening. I reported to the board the just the pictures of the propeller parts, and the one 4-digit number on the wooden prop base ring, were not sufficient information to yield even a guess as to the real identification of these parts. I told the 2 people working on this that they will need to do further cleaning, and try to find additional markings and numbers for the forum experts to work with. Thanks for trying.

I thought I had a good stand-alone picture of the bearing cap, which clearly showed all the numbers, but I sure can't find it. I'll have to take another one.

Merry Christmas.

Larry

Hi Larry,

I discovered the posts about the Bearing cap, it is Werk Nr 14366 and was from a DB 601 E built at Berlin Marienfelde Werk 90 in 6/1942. The corroboration was given by Steve Sheflin who has the photo of the Typenschild from 14379 which shows it to be a DB 601 E.
The distinction that it is a DB 601 E part, rather than the earlier DB 601 A/N versions is important as the DB 601 E was a major redesign that led directly to the most prolific DB 605 engines.

Cheers

Eng

Edit. To correct details.

 

[Malechite138]

Me and Joe were talking about these today. I was thinking of cleaning them up after the 109 hub to see if they have any numbers on them. Might give us a better chance of an ID if they have any. But they remind me a lot of our 3 prop Hamilton variable pitch hub. When I looked up what planes had 4 prop Hamilton's; I got the following list from Google's AI (and it failed miserably given most of these are 3 props...heh):

• T6 Texans: These aircraft were equipped with Hamilton Standard propellers.
• Beechcraft C-45s: These aircraft were equipped with Hamilton Standard propellers.
• USN and USAAF fighter aircraft: These aircraft were equipped with Hamilton Standard propellers.
• DC-3s: These aircraft were equipped with Hamilton Standard propellers.
• C-47s: These aircraft were equipped with Hamilton Standard propellers.
• F4U Corsair: This aircraft used Hamilton Standard propellers.
• Hellcat: This aircraft used Hamilton Standard propellers.
• P-51 Mustang: This aircraft used Hamilton Standard propellers.
• B-17 Flying Fortress: This aircraft used Hamilton Standard propellers.
• P-47 Thunderbolt: This aircraft used Hamilton Standard propellers.

After a little homework, I'm really leaning towards the 2 metal pieces being from a P-51. Our "book" only covers foreign military aircraft (I made a copy
to look at here at home). It doesn't cover the aircraft we had on base that were ours/allied. But look at this other thread I found and the pictures from it,
and see what you think? It was a good part of the reason I'm leaning towards the 2 metal parts being from a P-51.

P-51 propeller hub

Hi Does anyone have a p51 hub scan for 3D printing have the front section need a rear section made as i cannot locate a rear section? Willing to pay for the scan Thanks

ww2aircraft.net

Until I get it cleaned up more it is just an educated guess...but I'm thinking I'm on the right track hopefully. P-47D is also a distinct possibility. Looking on the
Website (=83rd Division) we had both a P-51 and a P-47D (also a 4 prop/Hamilton), but they both shipped to Chicago (spare parts?). So the mystery may persist until I get it cleaned up a bit. Until then, I think it will remain best guess speculation.
Curiosity may end up getting the better of me at some point. I may end up just taking a break on the 109 hub (because it is going to take a LOT of time) to clean those 2 up enough to repost pics, and see if we can't solve the mystery. And if others hadn't already guessed; I'm one of the clean up/restoration guys at Freeman Army Airfield Museum. Shout out to Larry for all he does for us. We ask him post the pictures because he's been in these threads far longer than me; and his cell camera is about a decade more advanced than mine (sad but true...if it ain't broke...don't fix it heh).

P.S. When the weather improves you'll have to take me up one day Larry.

P.P.S. (Larry): Our link trainer "guy" got some hair today that I found in the main building. I forgot to take a pic though, but your hat is on the annex counter.
We left the headset on because it helps hold his new hairdo on (and frankly looks better...was a great idea).

CJ

 

[Engineman]

Hi Malechite,

Certainly, the Spider looks similar to the HS, but there are many possibilities. Your Front and rear Hub (Barrel) doesn't look like the detail in the thread you link. Particularly, the bolts look to be single at each joint, the shape looks quite different, I think, also with that large "Maltese cross" cut-out. Have a look at the HS 24D50 details in that link.
You might be lucky with some numbers, but I suspect a vintage prop specialist might recognise the Hub when cleaned-up.
I enclose that linked manual extract.

Also, I would love to see any pics of the "109 Hub" you are working on. In good condition, there would be a light Aluminium data plate riveted onto the hub. Also, the Hub will be strongly stamped on the front of the hub, around the circular opening for the large retaining nut. Other components may be stamped as well.

Cheers

Eng

 

[Malechite138]

Hi Malechite,

Certainly, the Spider looks similar to the HS, but there are many possibilities. Your Front and rear Hub (Barrel) doesn't look like the detail in the thread you link. Particularly, the bolts look to be single at each joint, the shape looks quite different, I think, also with that large "Maltese cross" cut-out. Have a look at the HS 24D50 details in that link.
You might be lucky with some numbers, but I suspect a vintage prop specialist might recognise the Hub when cleaned-up.
I enclose that linked manual extract.

Also, I would love to see any pics of the "109 Hub" you are working on. In good condition, there would be a light Aluminium data plate riveted onto the hub. Also, the Hub will be strongly stamped on the front of the hub, around the circular opening for the large retaining nut. Other components may be stamped as well.

Cheers

Eng

I'm getting more and more curious about these now. I'll have to work on them next Saturday. The 109 has a ton of numbers already near prop holes (I pointed them out to Joe, but we didn't take any pictures yet). My first session was to remove all the dirt from inside (the pics I posted, the numbers weren't visible until after this last session, but I didn't snap any pics yet). This last one was only the second session and it was just to start cleaning it up. I'm estimating around 30 cleanup sessions minimum just to get it good enough to be ready for anti-rust/paint. But I'll grab some pics on Saturday for everyone. It is sitting next to the 190 hub now that I haven't started yet either (if you don't count removal of the giant circle piece). You can tell something happened to the 190 (crash??) due to some bending. And now that my curiosity is piqued, I'll likely work on those 2 random pieces next weekend to see if we can't solve the mystery.

Our 3 prop Hamilton still has the nose cone on it (so no idea what shape is underneath it). But it was the insert piece with the 4 ends that had me leaning towards Hamilton...but anything is possible. Hopefully after some cleanup and fresh pics we can get it figured out next week.

I found some of the pics of our first cleanup of the 109 hub. So I'll post those and some 190 hub pics I found on my computer. My cell recently complained about memory; so my gallery got sent to the computer basically. As you can see...a long way to go. but since we have propellers for the 109, I was keen on doing it before the 190. for a larger and more complete display of a hub/props.

And for some fun, our new guy with the bald head. He's got hair now, but I didn't take a picture of it yesterday. I'd put a cap on his bald head. But Larry correctly pointed out that he shouldn't be wearing "cover" indoors. But he's now running our link trainer. I'll try to remember to get a pic of him on Saturday too with his new hairdo (unless Larry beats me to it this week and wants to post it in here). He's currently wearing his new hair and some headphones Larry picked out for him.

As you can see, my old cell camera sucks compared to Larry's. But you get the general idea. And at least you get to see the approximate state of the 109 and 190. The 109 was on the cart so I could take it inside/outside to work on. But with the snow and cold we have currently, I moved it into the dig room with the 190 to make it easier for me to work on it in an enclosed space (with optional heat too if I need it! lol).

CJ

 

[MiTasol]

Be very gentle with that little plate on the hub as that is the propeller data - make model and serial. From there everything becomes much easier as I am sure someone here will have a manual and parts list for the beast.

Love your link trainer display.

 

[Engineman]

I'm getting more and more curious about these now. I'll have to work on them next Saturday. The 109 has a ton of numbers already near prop holes (I pointed them out to Joe, but we didn't take any pictures yet). My first session was to remove all the dirt from inside (the pics I posted, the numbers weren't visible until after this last session, but I didn't snap any pics yet). This last one was only the second session and it was just to start cleaning it up. I'm estimating around 30 cleanup sessions minimum just to get it good enough to be ready for anti-rust/paint. But I'll grab some pics on Saturday for everyone. It is sitting next to the 190 hub now that I haven't started yet either (if you don't count removal of the giant circle piece). You can tell something happened to the 190 (crash??) due to some bending. And now that my curiosity is piqued, I'll likely work on those 2 random pieces next weekend to see if we can't solve the mystery.

Our 3 prop Hamilton still has the nose cone on it (so no idea what shape is underneath it). But it was the insert piece with the 4 ends that had me leaning towards Hamilton...but anything is possible. Hopefully after some cleanup and fresh pics we can get it figured out next week.

I found some of the pics of our first cleanup of the 109 hub. So I'll post those and some 190 hub pics I found on my computer. My cell recently complained about memory; so my gallery got sent to the computer basically. As you can see...a long way to go. but since we have propellers for the 109, I was keen on doing it before the 190. for a larger and more complete display of a hub/props.

View attachment 812780View attachment 812781View attachment 812782View attachment 812783View attachment 812784View attachment 812785View attachment 812786View attachment 812787

And for some fun, our new guy with the bald head. He's got hair now, but I didn't take a picture of it yesterday. I'd put a cap on his bald head. But Larry correctly pointed out that he shouldn't be wearing "cover" indoors. But he's now running our link trainer. I'll try to remember to get a pic of him on Saturday too with his new hairdo (unless Larry beats me to it this week and wants to post it in here). He's currently wearing his new hair and some headphones Larry picked out for him.

View attachment 812789View attachment 812788View attachment 812790

As you can see, my old cell camera sucks compared to Larry's. But you get the general idea. And at least you get to see the approximate state of the 109 and 190. The 109 was on the cart so I could take it inside/outside to work on. But with the snow and cold we have currently, I moved it into the dig room with the 190 to make it easier for me to work on it in an enclosed space (with optional heat too if I need it! lol).

CJ

Great photo's CJ!
I think these relics are extra interesting because they have the additional history of becoming Allied technical study and intelligence items. The condition is a little unfortunate but, they are important artefacts and sympathetically restored with good identification, they can be correctly identified and displayed.
The first four photos show a VDM Propeller Hub of the later type with integrated pitch change spline coupling (dented) and a large diameter spinner backplate. This large diameter spinner backplate was normally seen on several Messerschmitt designs and so the likely parent aircraft was Bf 109 F/G/K, Bf 110 G, Me 210 or Me 410. These aircraft had different specific propellers and spinners but, they all look similar to the casual observer. Although a similar (but different) VDM Hub was fitted to the Fw 190 with the BMW 801, that had a much smaller diameter spinner backplate and so this is not a Fw 190 propeller.
You don't show the front of this Hub, but I think I can see the large prop shaft Nut is still there? If it is there, it will be being retained by the large steel snap-ring that fits just inside the front prop shaft opening in a deep groove. The big (about 5 inch dia) snap ring can be removed with leavering tools after removing rust. Beware! The snap ring may fly out with force! After the big snap ring is removed, the prop shaft nut is free to pull out, complete with the two bronze half's of the cone ring.
The stamped Propeller id numbers are stamped around the outer periphery of the front circular opening where this big hub nut fits into.

Cheers

Eng

 

[Engineman]

The next four photo's in your post, show a different earlier type of VDM propeller Hub, complete with the VDM extension prop shaft with serrated flange coupling and the prop shaft nut at the front.
This style of VDM Hub was used on earlier aircraft such as Bf 109 E/F1-2, Bf 110 and even some early WW2 He 111 and Ju 88. Again, all these propeller applications were similar but specifically different . Fortunately, I can identify the specific application from the numbers stamped into the Hub casting around the front hole where the big prop nut is fitted into.
In this case the prop shaft and prop nut are fitted. The nut was probably not fully tightened here because the separate pitch-change gearbox assembly has been removed from the rear of the hub. If you are going to undo the big prop nut and prop shaft, this should not be too difficult. I would advise bolting the serrated flange of the propshaft securely to a very strong support of workbench. The propnut has a normal righthand thread and is undone with a long round steel bar. The bar needs to be a close fit in the round holes of the prop nut. I would advise having an extension of about a yard long, in case the nut is actually tight. You might find that a strong heating of the nut will help release it. There should again be a snap ring locating the front bronze cones inside the hub, behind the big nut. These parts are close fit and need good cleaning of the hole to slide out, if it is rusty in there.
If parts are clean it all slides apart, the prop shaft is splined with a master spline but it is a sliding fit in the hub. Of course , dirt and corrosion in there may make it seem a solid fit but, with the snap ring removed and nut off, only dirt or corrosion is holding the the half cones and prop shaft in the hub. Careful cleaning and mechanical technique will get it apart.

Now, just like the other hub, the prop id is stamped around the circular opening for the big nut at the front. Do be careful with the mechanical ways you clean/restore the hub. The stampings are quite well defined in the metal but, where corrosion is present, the numbers may need care to not be lost with excessive mechanical cleaning.

Looking forward to giving you more info as you get some numbers!

Eng