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Came across this in a SHDDA listing: Moteurs Hispano-Suiza 12Y, réducteur pour hélice à pas constants et circulation d'huile : plans.All three of these were 2-pitch, manually controlled props?
Regardless, the D.520 and VG-33 were not significantly better armed than the M.S.406. The Germans, of course, abandoned the twin MG-FF/Ms despite the destructive Minengeschoss shells and went with a hub-mounted MG151/20 (after briefly using the MG-FF/M in the propeller hub. This certainly indicates that the M.S.406's armament wasn't far off the mark. Certainly, it would have been outclassed by early 1941, but it was fine for the May-June campaign.For what it's worth, recorded rates of fire from Hispano guns in firing trials. Various Spitfires, various front mounting units.
Regardless, the D.520 and VG-33 were not significantly better armed than the M.S.406. The Germans, of course, abandoned the twin MG-FF/Ms despite the destructive Minengeschoss shells and went with a hub-mounted MG151/20 (after briefly using the MG-FF/M in the propeller hub. This certainly indicates that the M.S.406's armament wasn't far off the mark. Certainly, it would have been outclassed by early 1941, but it was fine for the May-June campaign.
For space reasons, not because it was a desirable weapon. Mixing the ballistics of three weapons was really, really sub-optimal.We can also recall that MG FFM was used aboard Fw 190s by some two years.
Yep, yep, yep, and yep. No arguments there, even if it doesn't directly relate to the question of the Bf109E-3 and early -4's armament compared to the M.S.406.The MG 151 cannon in the 109's propeller, after they finally (after several years) got the MG/FF to work in that position with an acceptable level of reliability, had several advantages over the MG/FF.
1. much greater ammo capacity.
2. higher rate of fire, around 700rom vs 500rpm (at best?)
3, higher velocity making deflection shooting easier. (the MG 151/15 was the champ but the MG 151/20 fired shells (non mine) 18% faster than the MG/FF with a corresponding reduction in flight time).
Particularly the fire before that last burst is less effective than the competition. That said, at least if you can sight in with the MGs, you can get a lot more out of that last burst than you otherwise would.As far as the Ms 406 argument goes. 60 rounds is 60 rounds. you have 60 rounds of 20mm ammo. the 109E-3 had 110-120 rounds depending on how full the drums were even if they weren't mine shells.
1 or 1.5 seconds extra firing time for the slower firing cannon isn't that big a deal. How many pilots succeeded using their last 1-2 seconds of ammo? Not saying that a few didn't get a kill that way but it wasn't a huge factor.
For space reasons, not because it was a desirable weapon. Mixing the ballistics of three weapons was really, really sub-optimal.
In any case, a side issue, and you're definitely right that having a cannon was better than not.
Not talking about that so much as the ballistic differences between the MG FFM and the MG 151/20.I agree that mixing 3 wepons with different ballistics was sub optimal, and certainly having extra firepower is a good thing (provided one does not over-do it). OTOH, ballistics of MG 17 and MG FFM were not that different.
Sure, but engineering solutions evolve over time, and what people are willing to put up with evolves over time. The MG 151/20s in the outer wings just took more engineering effort, and the engineers may not have been able to come up with an acceptable solution in the time available. They had to get the 190 into flight testing and then into production. Then you go back an improve things after the initial release to production. I've seen this with all sorts of engineering.Space reasons did not prevented instalaltion of MG 151/20 inn outer wing position (they were installed there from Fw 190A-6 and on in factory, even the MK 108 was), but probably it was the case of not having enough of MG 151s.
Not talking about that so much as the ballistic differences between the MG FFM and the MG 151/20.
Sure, but engineering solutions evolve over time, and what people are willing to put up with evolves over time. The MG 151/20s in the outer wings just took more engineering effort, and the engineers may not have been able to come up with an acceptable solution in the time available. They had to get the 190 into flight testing and then into production. Then you go back an improve things after the initial release to production. I've seen this with all sorts of engineering.
Simply not true compared to its contemporaries in the May-June campaign. It was facing Bf109E-3s and -4s, which had two MG-17s in the nose (synchronized) and two MG-FFs in the wings. Importantly, these were not MG-FF/Ms, so no Minengeschoss. That makes a huge difference in destructiveness. The H.S.404 (and even the HS-9 in the early production M.S.406s) had a much higher rate of fire and muzzle velocity than the MG-FF, which meant that it hit much harder. The French 20mm cannons and the MG-FF were all drum-fed with 60 rounds (often reduced to 55 rounds in service). The MG-FFs had more total firing time, but that was because of their low rate of fire, so it's not an advantage
How good (or bad) the fuses were on the French and German ammo at this time I have no idea. The British shortly after the Battle of France (or the BoB) had so much trouble with their 20mm HS shells exploding on impact (fuselage or wing skin) and not getting inside before detonating that they took to mixing in inert training projectiles (they called them ball rounds) in order to insure that some projectiles would get deep into an aircraft and cause damage there. Later they got improved fuses that detonated the shells several feet inside the aircraft.