Question on M.S.406

[davebender]

France, 194... something
Looking at the OOB this appears to be the case. Which speaks volumes about how the French Air Force viewed the Ms.406 compared to other fighter aircraft.

There was a French Ms.406 squadron on Madagascar during the British invasion. Did they fight or sit the battle out?

 

[Watanbe]

I don't think its that bad a plane, the thing when comparing the early war fighters that comes to mind is just how much better the Me109 and Spitfire was compared to rest of its competition. If you consider the designs coming from the US and other parts of Europe (excepting maybe the D.520) it was probably on par!

 

[parsifal]

The MS 406 was actually a 1935 design, so you actually need to compare with the aircraft on the drawing boards in 1935. Except that the French were rather slow in developing new types as a result of their rationalization program. Other countries were developing types in 1938 that were entering service in 1940-41, whilst the French were developing types in 1935-6 that were still only entering service in 1940-41.
To be fair, by 1939 the french were ovewrcoming their difficulties, and were beginning to developing very superior aircraft, but they were all just a bunch of prototypes at the time of the armistice
So, you need to compare the MS 406 with the foreign types being worked n in 1938-9 if you want to compare apples to apples. That puts the poor od Morane up against the MC 200, IK-3, IAR 80, P-40, P-43, F4f, Lagg-3, Mig-1/3, Yak-1, A6M, Ki-43, FK-58 and domestically the D-520 and MB 152. The british had the HurricaneI and the Spit, and were already looking at the typhoon. Germany of course had the 109.

Against some of these types the Morane was competitive, but as a generalization it had so many weaknesses that it cannot be considered in the top half of its class. Just an example....whilst it boasted a single cannon, and 2 x7.5 mm LMGs in the wing, the cannon carried only sixty rounds and was somewhat prone to jam (similar to the problems faced by the nose mounted cannon in the 109) whilst the 7.5mms carried only 300 rpg and were not heated leading to a marked tendency to freeze above 15000 ft

 

[Clay_Allison]

I don't think its that bad a plane, the thing when comparing the early war fighters that comes to mind is just how much better the Me109 and Spitfire was compared to rest of its competition. If you consider the designs coming from the US and other parts of Europe (excepting maybe the D.520) it was probably on par!

Given the choice, I'd take a P-40 100 times out of 100 over the M.S.406. It had more power, more armament, and was far far tougher. The P-40 killed a lot of 109Es before the 109F established a clear advantage.

It never did fight well high, but the Moraine didn't have a great supercharger either and would have had to fight in the P-40's element where it was never outclassed (down on the deck).

Also, IIRC, Allied P-40s trashed some Vichy Moraines in Africa.

 

[Watanbe]

yeh fair enough, I personally think the P40 is quite under rated it had its success' in Africa!

 

[Vincenzo]

I don't think it's fair compare MS 406 with P-40, and some of the others indicated to parsifal, at time a year it's a long time.
take out development, first production MS 406 flying january '39, first P-40 april '40, first P-43 may '41, F4F-3 february '40, IK 3 july '40, IAR 80 january '41, A6M january '40, Ki-43 april '41, D. 520 november '39, Lagg february '41, MiG autumn '40 and same for the Yak

 

[Juha]

Some bits of info on FAF (Finnish AF) MS 406s
French gov. donated 30 MS 406s to Finland during the Winter War, first a/c to operations in early Feb. 40, flew 288 sorties, 14 kills, one loss to AAA.
From Germany's war booty depots Finns bought 10 MS 406s in Dec 1940, 15 in 1941 and 32 in 1942, few of them were MS 410s. Altogether FAF got 87 Moranes. During the Continuation War (25 Jun 41- 4 Sept 44) Morane pilots claimed 121 kills, lost 27 a/c in combat (18 in air combat, 8 to AA, one to own AA) plus one on ground plus 14 in accidents or because of technical malfunctions..
Mörkö-Morane, re-engined with Klimov M-105P, first flight on 4 Feb 43, during the Continuation War two others were modified. Altogether 41 a/c were modified by 21 Nov 44.
Mörkö-Morane pilot(s) got 4 kills, all by sergeant Hattinen, a very daring, one would say over daring, pilot while flying the proto MSv-617. In reality Hattinen shot down one La-5 and one Airacobra. He got the Airacobra when he attacked alone a formation of 30+ Soviet fighters, claimed 2, but in the end he was shot down but managed to jump. He had got the La-5 earlier when he attacked, again alone, a Soviet formation of 6 La-5s and 6 Il-2s.
Morane was very good turner but lousy climber. Poor gun platform. Much technical problems.

On Frech service, MS wasn't helpless but Hawk 75, export version of P-36 series, did better, in fact Hawk 75 was the most succesful fighter of French AF in 1939-40 period.

Juha

 

[parsifal]

I don't think it's fair compare MS 406 with P-40, and some of the others indicated to parsifal, at time a year it's a long time.
take out development, first production MS 406 flying january '39, first P-40 april '40, first P-43 may '41, F4F-3 february '40, IK 3 july '40, IAR 80 january '41, A6M january '40, Ki-43 april '41, D. 520 november '39, Lagg february '41, MiG autumn '40 and same for the Yak

Hi Vincenzo

I do basically accept what you are saying, however, note this, in Septmeber 1939, there were less than 70 moranes operational in the French AF. This is despite the fact that they had a two year headstart on most of the types I have mentioned. i know it unfair to compare an a/c developed basically 1935-6 to a/c developed 1939-40, but thats the result of the French aeronautical industry being so innefficient at the time, not because I wanted to make an unfair comparison

 

[Vincenzo]

Hi Vincenzo

I do basically accept what you are saying, however, note this, in Septmeber 1939, there were less than 70 moranes operational in the French AF. This is despite the fact that they had a two year headstart on most of the types I have mentioned. i know it unfair to compare an a/c developed basically 1935-6 to a/c developed 1939-40, but thats the result of the French aeronautical industry being so innefficient at the time, not because I wanted to make an unfair comparison

I can understand your point on innefficiency of french aeronautical industry, but in septemebr '39 there are 70 406 but none of all types that i indicate

 

[Von Frag]

Parsifal, didn't the Finns re-engine or modify them in some way to make them more effective? I remember they called some of theirs the "Morko-Morane". Were these the modified versions?

Venganza

Yes, they re-engined some with a Klimov 105 I think, and used Russian propellers. Top speed did not improve much, but the Morko (Ghost) could climb over 4,000 ft per minute.

 

[Fokker D21]

I have to agree with Vincenzo. The first P-40's went into service in early 1941 in the DAF (desert airforce) and only saw operational service in the USAAF in July 1942.

It's main opponents were Bf 109 F and G and Fw 190's.

 

[Fokker D21]

To answer Rousseau's question, my best guess is either on of these two:

1) The MS 406 is the older design. So perhaps in the other designs new developments also led to an improved oil cooler design.

2) The MS 406 has a semi retractable radiator. It is not unlikely that the oil cooler was supposed to do some of the engine cooling as well (perhaps even a significant part whith the radiator retracted). In the Bf 109 about one third of engine cooling is taken care of by the oil cooler. The three other fighters all have fixed radiators.

 

[Mangrove]

Yes, they re-engined some with a Klimov 105 I think, and used Russian propellers. Top speed did not improve much, but the Morko (Ghost) could climb over 4,000 ft per minute.

Hi,

Ghost would be "haamu" in Finnish. Mörkö is more a "bogeyman" or "the Groke" from Moomin.

The speed advance against the original model was improved as much as 10% and climbing speed to 5,000 meters by two minutes from 10 to 8.

Martti

 

[waroff]

I think there is some error:

(from "Notice descriptive MS 406")

 

[JoeB]

There was a French Ms.406 squadron on Madagascar during the British invasion. Did they fight or sit the battle out?

There was one air combat in Madagascar of Ms406 v. FAA Martlets (F4F's) of 881 Sdn from HMS Illustrious, May 7, 1942. Of 4 Martlets, one belly landed after hit to the engine with 20mm; they claimed 4 Ms406's. Per French accounts only 3 Ms406's were present but all were shot down, 1 pilot killed.

The French force in Syria in June '41 included 18 Ms406's of GC I/7, later reinforced with 4 more, alongside a larger number of D520's. The only conclusive air combats by Moranes mentioned in that book are damage to a recon Hurricane June 7, one Morane downed by defensive fire from a Blenheim June 14, one Blenheim downed by Moranes July 4, one Wellington crashlanded after Morane night interception July 7. The conclusive fighter v. fighter actions in Syria all involved D.520's: among fighters D.520's downed 2 Tomahawks, 4 Hurricanes and 3 Fulmars for the loss of 3 to Tomahawks, 2 to Hurricanes and 4 to Gladiators. Those two campaigns Per "Dust Clouds over the Middle East" by Shores.

The other combat episode of Vichy Ms406's was in the Thai-French war of 1940-41. Around 20 Ms406's were the total French fighter strength in Indochina, against a larger but mainly biplane equipped Thai fighter force. They scored few victories confirmed by the Thai's though suffered no outright losses themsevles. Victories confirmed by the Thai's were 1 Mitubishi Ki-30 light bomber, and one Thai Hawk 75N (fixed undercarriage, 23mm podded cannon) crashlanded. One Morane landed on fire after combat with Hawk 75N's but was not counted lost by the French. Some or all the Moranes were missing their 20mm cannon though. In early 1942, after the French were forced to agree to Japanese bases in Indochina, Japanese Army Type 97 Fighters attacked Moranes once, mistaking them for AVG P-40's and shooting down 2. Per "l'Aviation Vichy au Combat" T.1 by Ehrengardt and Shores

Joe

 

[Elvis]

...and the sad stupid-looking P-26 Peashooter.

Saddest part of all is that the plane was originally designed with a one-piece wing and retractable undercarriage.
-----------------------------------------------------

Rosseau,

I don't know about the other planes, but it seems the D.520 had its oil cooler moved to a separate "cowling" that was located under the fuselage, sort of like a Spitfire or a P-51.

Elvis

 

[Twodeaddogs]

You'd wonder how much influence the D520 had on Soviet types.
regards
TDD

 

[VG-33]

Nice pics. Agree with You guys, OIL COOLER.

As long as we are talking about this plane, can someone tell me what was its combat history and what was it like in combat?

Cheers

Since i didn't found them in this thread, i venture to give you the right numbers from the SHAD, Armée de l'air archive's center.

1081 MS 406 produced, some later modified to MS 410 standards.

572 were on line on late august 1939, in 12 distinct fighter air groups.

Having a constant-speed propeller, pilot and fuel tank protection, it performed well during the "fonny war" against 109D, but was soon overclassed by the E model.

For this reason it was intended to be replaced by more modern fighters like the D-520, but due to huge delays in the replacement programm, only 6 groups began transformation in may 1940. 6 other planes fought on this plane until the end.

MS-406's were credited with 191 confirmed and 89 unconfirmed kills. 150 were lost due to battle damages before Battle of France begun to look like Barbarossa and 300 other MS-406 were abandonned or lost on the airfields during the retreat.

By general opinion was an easy, nimble and pleasant plane to fly, but was suffering from some technical troubles, and was outperformed by the 109 E. Nevertheless the improved MS-410 model was able to gain extra 25-35 km/h due to improved aerodynamics and new 910 hp Y-45 engine, and some other 15-20 km/h only by using propulsive exhaust pipes. In that form it was not inferior to the serial D-520.

Regards

 

[vanir]

Klimov M-105P was a derivative of the Hispano 12Y motor so it was a natural transition. At around 90cm boost (1.2atm) it's got similar output as the early Merlins (ca.1150hp WEP, 1100 military) and is rated for basic 80-87 octane. From what I've read Soviet fuel quality was poor in 1940-1. Two speed supercharger gives good performance at 1000 and 3000 metres but it performs poorly above 4000 metres and has no automatic boost regulation. The M-105PF (ca.1320hp WEP, 1260 military) was a recalibration for high fuel grade (100 octane) with 110cm maximum boost iirc (1.47atm). No other modifications were made to the basic engine.

Boost calibration for the M-105 continued to be adjusted as Soviet fuel quality improved later in the war. By 1943 boost was up to 115cm (PF2 motor) and finally in 1945 to something like 118cm (PF3 motors fitted to Yak-3), for a final return of some 1360hp military (2600rpm) and ca.1430hp WEP (2800-3000rpm) for a minute or two.

All of these are basically the same engine with the same supercharger and anciliaries (I think the PF3 made some other changes so is kind of a hybrid with some VK-107 parts), the only major difference between M-105P, PF and PF2 motors is essentially boost recalibration for different fuel qualities and later towards the end of '42 improved pistons were fitted.

Klimov motors captured during 1941 will invariably be M-105P, the PF started to appear after July '42 but the Leningrad front was very quick to adopt these, later series LaGG were flown sometimes straight from the factory without so much as a paintjob to the area. And existing 105P were recalibrated from this time at the field.
There were problems with the lend lease Hurricanes and Merlin engines had to be derated during '41 to use local fuel. Also they had to be drained of all fluids and serviced using local products or else they stopped working when temperatures plummetted. Some were just stripped of their armoured seats and radios so these could be fitted to local a/c like the LaGG and Il2.

Given the timescale of captured M-105 motors fitted to Finnish Moranes I'd have thought the PF motor was most likely, only training sqns would have the P because its recalibration was very simple and could be performed in the field, essentially once the authorisation for higher boost was given in mid-42 everybody ran around recalibrating their existing aircraft, as well as all new models coming from the factory featured the new boost calibration. The transition of 105P to PF was essentially only one of fuel quality.

The Morane is much like a Hurricane in build, being mixed construction and designed in that era. I guess fitting one with a ~1300hp Klimov makes it fairly similar to a MkII with poorer altitude performance. It's a bit of a jump from the 12Y31 in the MS.406 in any case, which is roughly a ~900hp motor.

I think of the Klimov as very much like an Allison in the P-40, generally underrated because of its altitude performance but otherwise actually a very contemporary high performance aero engine.

 

[Altea]

Hello Vanir,

I have to desagree on some points.

Klimov M-105P was a derivative of the Hispano 12Y motor so it was a natural transition. At around 90cm boost (1.2atm) it's got similar output as the early Merlins (ca.1150hp WEP, 1100 military) and is rated for basic 80-87 octane. From what I've read Soviet fuel quality was poor in 1940-1. Two speed supercharger gives good performance at 1000 and 3000 metres but it performs poorly above 4000 metres and has no automatic boost regulation.

Klimov engines were intended to use from 91-92 to 95-96 octane graded fuels from the M-103 model. All were qualified at 94 octane number during state trials.

The M-105P was rated at 1100 hp for take off in 1940.
1020 hp at nominal boost 910 mmHg at SL
1100 hp at 2000 m
1050 hp at 4000 m.

Some docs give 920-930 mmHg for the M-105PA at nominal at SL.

But this is a kind of rethorical problem, all pilots actually used 950 mm hp for M-105 engines from 1941 for nominal (no time limits) regime.

So 1150 hp for Klimov, it's from western (finish, german ?) sources, since no modification occured in official soviet 1939's charts for the 105P, PA, RA series...But it's certainly closer to the truth than outdated soviet chart's.

I don't know what do you mean by WEP, Military etc cause neither Hispanos nor Klimov had WEP, combat, military or any extra over boosted power of any kind until the Klimov 107A appraisal. Only "nominal", that can be translated by "normal" or "max continuous course" power.

The M-105PF (ca.1320hp WEP, 1260 military) was a recalibration for high fuel grade (100 octane) with 110cm maximum boost iirc (1.47atm). No other modifications were made to the basic engine.

Soviets had no 100 octane fuel until late in war,except from Lend Lease deliveries. With standard 94 one (in fact real octane number 91-92) the M-105PF gave in spring of 1942

1210 hp at SL at 1050 mmHg both nominal and T.O. (In fact it had no T-Off. overboost)
1260 hp at 0700 m
1180 hp at 2700 m

Boost calibration for the M-105 continued to be adjusted as Soviet fuel quality improved later in the war. By 1943 boost was up to 115cm (PF2 motor) and finally in 1945 to something like 118cm (PF3 motors fitted to Yak-3), for a final return of some 1360hp military (2600rpm) and ca.1430hp WEP (2800-3000rpm) for a minute or two.

The PF-2 gave in mid 1943

1290 hp at SL
1320 hp at 0300 m
1240 hp at 2200 m
all with 94,5 octanes fuel at nominal, since it had no more WEP or military or combat rew as usual.

The 105 PF-3 only exists in western old sources and might be (who knows?) in Klimov's design bureau drawing boards and experimental variants...

Some pilots remember 100 octanes (blue) LL use in their front-line Yaks, with a 20 km/h speed gain and some overheating. But nothing official issued from soviet industry.

All of these are basically the same engine with the same supercharger and anciliaries (I think the PF3 made some other changes so is kind of a hybrid with some VK-107 parts), the only major difference between M-105P, PF and PF2 motors is essentially boost recalibration for different fuel qualities and later towards the end of '42 improved pistons were fitted.

False, the 3Б-78 (and 4Б-78 used on M-82) soviet fuels always had 93-95 (and 95-96) o. number from 1939, with some quality fall to 91-92 in some midwar deliveries.

Klimov motors captured during 1941 will invariably be M-105P, the PF started to appear after July '42 but the Leningrad front was very quick to adopt these, later series LaGG were flown sometimes straight from the factory without so much as a paintjob to the area. And existing 105P were recalibrated from this time at the field.

Don't think so, serial 105PF had modified crankshafs, moving weights dispatching and slightly compression rate reduction, due to modified piston and p- bearer design. But if you have some concrete examples...

There were problems with the lend lease Hurricanes and Merlin engines had to be derated during '41 to use local fuel. Also they had to be drained of all fluids and serviced using local products or else they stopped working when temperatures plummetted. Some were just stripped of their armoured seats and radios so these could be fitted to local a/c like the LaGG and Il2.

Given the timescale of captured M-105 motors fitted to Finnish Moranes I'd have thought the PF motor was most likely, only training sqns would have the P because its recalibration was very simple and could be performed in the field, essentially once the authorisation for higher boost was given in mid-42 everybody ran around recalibrating their existing aircraft, as well as all new models coming from the factory featured the new boost calibration. The transition of 105P to PF was essentially only one of fuel quality.

Where could they taken the 105PF from? Finish sources quote captured airwothy 105P, certainly ex german captured from 41 to 42. Moroever 105PF reduction gear axis was about 100 mm higher than the previous 105P (from Yak family specialists: Stépanets, Kuznetsov). It's generally forgotten in plastic kits. So for the 100 mm wing move aft from the Yak-1 to the 7. You have to redesign your plane's nose for that.

The Morane is much like a Hurricane in build, being mixed construction and designed in that era. I guess fitting one with a ~1300hp Klimov makes it fairly similar to a MkII with poorer altitude performance. It's a bit of a jump from the 12Y31 in the MS.406 in any case, which is roughly a ~900hp motor.

I think of the Klimov as very much like an Allison in the P-40, generally underrated because of its altitude performance but otherwise actually a very contemporary high performance aero engine.

I think that the Klimov was a tremendously better engine than the P-40's Allison at low hights and max continuous power*, with the same octanes numbers fuel.


* Considering that fair condition, Hispano-S were not far behind german or british best engines in 1939-40.

Regards