Radial and Inline engines are backwards?

[PWR4360-59B]

Its been awhile since I've checked the inlines for cylinder numbering, the radials I do know.
This is about how it looks like all those engines are installed backwards in the aircraft. Most all automotive engines and even industrial engines are numbered from front to rear. All the aircraft engines the number 1 cylinder is in the rear. Why? Because the power take off end is the front. The power take off end is always at the rear of any recip engine. So aircraft engines except for pusher installations are installed in reverse.

 

[wuzak]

The Rolls-Royce Vulture numbered the cylinders from the power take-off 1 to 6, and by bank, A to D. So A bank, from the propeller end, was 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, 5A, 6A.

I don't know for other engines.

Why do you say power take-off is the rear of reciprocating engines? Does it matter beyond what the manufacturer calls front and rear? Whihc, usually, would be defined by its normal installation.


As for car engines, there is no standard way, so some number from the front and others number from the rear.

 

[gumbyk]

Its been awhile since I've checked the inlines for cylinder numbering, the radials I do know.
This is about how it looks like all those engines are installed backwards in the aircraft. Most all automotive engines and even industrial engines are numbered from front to rear. All the aircraft engines the number 1 cylinder is in the rear. Why? Because the power take off end is the front. The power take off end is always at the rear of any recip engine. So aircraft engines except for pusher installations are installed in reverse.

There is no convention regarding cylinder numbering, even now Continental and Lycoming horizontally opposed piston engines are numbered differently - Lycoming number front to rear, Continental are rear to front.

 

[PWR4360-59B]

I'm talking Radial's and Inlines, not opposed small plane stuff. The correct numbering is what the "Old guys" did in the day. Front is not the power take off end.

 

[tyrodtom]

And then there's sideways mounted engines, even back at the start of the 20th century. How were they numbered?
Look how Ford numbers their V8 in some years, 1234,from the front up the left side, ( as you sit in the car),5678, on the right. While most other v8 builders, not all, number them 1357 from the front up the left side, and 2468 on the right.

There is no "right" or "wrong" way to number the cylinders of a engine, it's however a engine maker wants to do it.

 

[MiTasol]

Its been awhile since I've checked the inlines for cylinder numbering, the radials I do know.
This is about how it looks like all those engines are installed backwards in the aircraft. Most all automotive engines and even industrial engines are numbered from front to rear. All the aircraft engines the number 1 cylinder is in the rear. Why? Because the power take off end is the front. The power take off end is always at the rear of any recip engine. So aircraft engines except for pusher installations are installed in reverse.

I was taught some 60 years ago that they are numbered as viewed by the pilot so number one is nearest the pilot and on v or w or three row engines looking from the rear A is the left bank

 

[gumbyk]

I'm talking Radial's and Inlines, not opposed small plane stuff. The correct numbering is what the "Old guys" did in the day. Front is not the power take off end.

Just an example that there isn't a standard way of numbering cylinders, as others have also pointed out.

 

[wuzak]

The correct numbering is what the "Old guys" did in the day.

Which "Old Guys"?

I doubt there has ever been a uniform numbering system.

Front is not the power take off end.

Who said so?

So, a Citroën Traction Avant, Citroën DS and Lamborghini Countach all have their engines backwards?

As for aero engines, they were designed to go in the nose of an aircraft or at the front of a nacelle or boom so the front of the engine must be the end with the power take-off, since the propeller had to be at the front.

 

[wuzak]

Rolls-Royce Merlin had A bank (right hand side from supercharger end) and B bank, which were numbered 1 - 6, 1 being at the prop end.

 

[GrauGeist]

The convention of numbering cylinders on an engine (and thus, "front to back") is typically determined by where the crankshaft connects to the camshaft (via gears or chain drive) regardless of how it's mounted.
This can be clearly seen by Chevrolet's Corvair H-6 engine, Volkswagon's H-4 engines and Tucker's H-6 O-355 engine, for example.
The Bell XFM-1 Airacuda used the Allison V-1710 engine, the same engine used in the P-40, P-39, P-63, A-36 and early P-51 - the only difference was that it was mounted as a pusher (backwards).

In automobiles, Ford had a habit of numbering their V-8 engines sequentially (left bank and right bank), Chevrolet did odd number/even number and then there was the Marmon V-16 cylinder, which numbered their firing order by right bank and left bank (L:1-3-6-7-2-4-5-1-8-6-3-2-7-5-4-8:R).

So an engine is not necessarily "backwards", it's doing what it was designed to do regardless of how it's mounted.

 

[gumbyk]

And, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter how a manufacturer chooses to number the cylinders on their engines anyway.

 

[wuzak]

The convention of numbering cylinders on an engine (and thus, "front to back") is typically determined by where the crankshaft connects to the camshaft (via gears or chain drive) regardless of how it's mounted.

Wouldn't think even that is a convention.

The Griffon cylinders were numbered the same as the Merlin, but the cam drive was at the front compared to the rear on the Merlin.

 

[PWR4360-59B]

Sorry to disapoint, but there is a logical way to number the cylinders, not that all manufactures follow the simple logic.
Some one mentioned corvair engines, they number it logically as are all the chevrolet engines I know of at least up to the end of the true SBC I have not done anything with LS engines so I can't comment.
Cam drive has nothing to do with it, there are cam drives at the flywheel end on some engines. And multi row radials have various positions for cam drive depending on the engine.
The mention of ford v engine numbering system, no logic involved with that, just what I would expect with them. Oh and I do have a ford product so !!!
I think some of the more non logical numbering systems were for ease of mechanics to learn, and nothing else, and would be why no convention with some. So now a simple question what is the logical way to number the average rear wheel drive V8 engines cylinders?

 

[gumbyk]

Sorry to disapoint, but there is a logical way to number the cylinders, not that all manufactures follow the simple logic.
Some one mentioned corvair engines, they number it logically as are all the chevrolet engines I know of at least up to the end of the true SBC I have not done anything with LS engines so I can't comment.
Cam drive has nothing to do with it, there are cam drives at the flywheel end on some engines. And multi row radials have various positions for cam drive depending on the engine.
The mention of ford v engine numbering system, no logic involved with that, just what I would expect with them. Oh and I do have a ford product so !!!
I think some of the more non logical numbering systems were for ease of mechanics to learn, and nothing else, and would be why no convention with some. So now a simple question what is the logical way to number the average rear wheel drive V8 engines cylinders?

If its not for ease of the mechanics, then why number them at all? No-one but the mechanics really care where cylinder #1 is.
What one person deems 'logical' makes no sense at all to another.

 

[PWR4360-59B]

No one but mechanics? Really? I'm sure engineers that design them need to know the correct firing order since it does affect many aspects of the design. The cylinder numbering can be as goofy as anyone wants, the firing order is not.

 

[gumbyk]

Well, then O Enlightened One, please tell us, what's the ONLY logical numbering system for radial and in-line engines?

 

[Vintageaeroengines]

Wow! what a wast of peoples time.
Lets have a history lesson:
First engines were built in Germany, Then England, US, France, Italy, and soon everyone was building.
Then we went from cars to airplanes with a huge number of manufactures making engines. Now add in the fact that all the early companies made their own hardware and supplied tools for the engines.
That made standards for hardware and tools a real necessity.
So then we had AN in the US, British standard in the UK and DIN in Germany.
However the numbering of cylinders started in Germany so they must be correct and everyone else in wrong. Of course Daimler Benz, BMW and Junkers all used different terms for aircraft engine parts so maybe we will have to go with DB as the final answer to all this.
Mike

 

[pbehn]

The first aircraft engine was built in the USA.

 

[KiwiBiggles]

The first aircraft engine was built in the USA.

The first aircraft engine was the electric motor in the dirigible "La France" - built in France, funnily enough - of 1884.

The first aeroplane engine was built in the USA.

 

[pbehn]

The first aircraft engine was the electric motor in the dirigible "La France" - built in France, funnily enough - of 1884.

The first aeroplane engine was built in the USA.

How were the cylinders numbered on the electric motor? Wiki isn't a help.