RAF Bomber Losses - Very Late 1944, or mostly 1945, please (Single Night)

[Hornchurch]

'

There "is" s guy somewhere else, on another forum that 'shall not be named' & in MY view, he's spouting drivel

Says and claims (with some degree of 'self-authority'), that the Luftwaffe night-defences WERE (Quote), "Finished by '44/'45"

"Finished, as in NON-EXISTANT" - "NON-EXISTANT" being the actual words that he used !

Hmmm, try telling that to ALL the Bomber crews lost & their bereaved ones.

I'm NOT here to debate all the 'b*ll*ks, why's & wherefore's & yes, I "know" Germany WAS being bought to it's knees.


I just found HIS comment disrespectful, misleading & frankly, bloody stupid

Just any single book of 'W.R.Chorley' (regarding '44/'45 - "Bomber Command Losses"), would make a mockery of his B.S "claim".

In "brief" reply, I told him he was "being an idiot" & just quoted the single-night/date, of "March 30th/31st 1944" as an example.

I've got W.R.Chorley's book regarding 1945 (Vol.6), but just cannot "be arsed" to look through, to "quote numbers" & statistics.

Can anyone point to a "large loss" of RAF Bomber a/c, in ONE SINGLE NIGHT in 1945, as in 1945 alone.

I believe the "idiot" left his B.S (erronous) statement as "ambiguous", perhaps to save face.

By other comments he's made, I believe him to be "fairly clueless" & talking "B*ll*cks"


That it's supposed to be on an 'information sharing website' rankles me, rather - Hearing him spout drivel !

"If" 1945 (German defence), was "non-existent", then W.R.Chorley's 1945 "Vol.6" would simply NOT exist

Also, it's clear that the guy has NEVER even heard of 'Operation Gisela'

Like everyone in the RAF (Halifaxes/Lancasters), WERE just "swanning around" without being shot at....... AT ALL !

Does anyone "know" the individual nights which involved the biggest losses of RAF Bombers in one single night, in 1945 ?


(I know it won't come anywhere NEAR the Nuremburg raid "night" figure, but it won't be dismissive, either - No loss ever is, esp' to family)

.

 

[tomo pauk]

It might be a good idea to post the link to that forum's discussion.

 

[Hornchurch]

It might be a good idea to post the link to that forum's discussion.

Hi Tomo' - I'd (much) rather "Abstain", as I stated in my initial post.

I'm still reeling at his ($hit) casual remarks !

Like ALL those crews in late '44 & all of '45 just don't matter. - I find it "insulting".

.

 

[pbehn]

I think "Operation Gisela" would be a good bench mark or place to start. Operation Gisela - Wikipedia

 

[Hornchurch]

I think "Operation Gisela" would be a good bench mark or place to start. Operation Gisela - Wikipedia

'


Yeah, cheers.

I did mention that already however, in my original post - (4th line from bottom)

Didn't "throw it back at him" (making a mockery of his B.S "claim"), as intuition leads me to believe, he's a "millennial"

Probably has played 'War Thunder' for like, 18-months & is now, today "a self-professed, fount of authority" - (I've always called it 'font')

Reminds me of my Ex-Fireman neighbours son, who played "M.o.H" (on Playstation), along with my own son, in the late 1990's

"Sten Gun = BEST GUN OF WW.II" - (he has/had 'A.D.H.D' & was always pretty-keen on "sounding-off")

I had to (briefly) explain about the Sten's infamous lack of reliability, proneness to "jamming" (& lack of penetration)

"Jack, just because it's GREAT in/on 'M.o.H' Underground ('M.o.H' version.II), DOES NOT make it historically accurate"

I didn't make a point of it - He's just a kid - (back then, will be around 29/30 now, today !)

It's just that folks WILL watch a B.S Hollywood Film, like, say "FURY" & then tell the world that the M.4 Sherman is/was "THE BEST"

I'm a fairly quiet guy, but I don't like hearing folks "spout off inaccurate drivel", on a History forum, or platform.

Nor do I like hearing folks who served AND "laid down their lives", being trivialised by a (F'king) IDIOT.

.

 

[SaparotRob]

No facts to back this up but for a BRIEF period of time the Sherman may actually have been the best tank in the world. I'm not up on armor but who hasn't wanted to drive one when traffic is backed up?
Historical ignorance is not limited to just one age group. I remember correcting "grownups" on certain points, including members of the greatest generation (not those who had been in the service). It's sad that so many people don't understand that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Glider]

I think the last major raid by Bomber Command was on Karlsruhe on the 2nd/3rd February 1945. 250 Lancaster's took part and 14 were lost close to a 6% loss rate

I would say that is a good performance from a strong defence

 

[Timppa]

'
I'm NOT here to debate all the 'b*ll*ks, why's & wherefore's & yes, I "know" Germany WAS being bought to it's knees.

Maybe the Russians, USA and even British ground forces had a tiny role.
Just suggesting.

 

[pbehn]

I think the last major raid by Bomber Command was on Karlsruhe on the 2nd/3rd February 1945. 250 Lancaster's took part and 14 were lost close to a 6% loss rate

I would say that is a good performance from a strong defence

More were involved in the operation that "Gisela" opposed on 3/4 of March but not at a single target by that time BC were running out of German targets to hit.

 

[Hornchurch]

Maybe the Russians, USA and even British ground forces had a tiny role.
Just suggesting.

'



I posted THIS thread, purely regarding GERMAN AIR DEFENCES & their ability to "bring down" British RAF Bombers - (Dominion as well)

As I've already said (in my original post), - "I'm NOT here to debate all the "B*ll*cks"..."whys" & "wherefore's"

Just ANY "figures" for ANY single night (loss-wise), during LATE 1944 & ALL THRU 1945.

So YOUR point has no relevance - (figures I'm asking after)


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[stona]

Between Bomber Command's attack on Dresden on 13 February 1945 and the end of the war Bomber Command lost almost 400 bombers.

This despite some claiming that by February the war was already won. The Western Allies still had to cross the Rhine and were still recovering from the effects of the German offensive in the Ardennes.

The Red Army still had to fight major battles up to and including that for Berlin, the last battle alone would cost something like 80,000 dead Russians.

The idea that Germany had ceased to exist as a meaningful opponent at this time would have come as a surprise to General Schorner who still had half a million men under his command in Army Group Centre, with Dresden at their backs.

I'm not sure who was shooting down all those bombers, The USAAF's lost a similar number, but my guess is that it was the far from defenceless Germans.

 

[Glider]

More were involved in the operation that "Gisela" opposed on 3/4 of March but not at a single target by that time BC were running out of German targets to hit.

That I don't deny. The idea was to show that at the end of the war the Luftwaffe were quite capable of putting up a strong defence, which I thought it did.

 

[Ovod]

Between Bomber Command's attack on Dresden on 13 February 1945 and the end of the war Bomber Command lost almost 400 bombers.

This despite some claiming that by February the war was already won. The Western Allies still had to cross the Rhine and were still recovering from the effects of the German offensive in the Ardennes.

The Red Army still had to fight major battles up to and including that for Berlin, the last battle alone would cost something like 80,000 dead Russians.

The idea that Germany had ceased to exist as a meaningful opponent at this time would have come as a surprise to General Schorner who still had half a million men under his command in Army Group Centre, with Dresden at their backs.

I'm not sure who was shooting down all those bombers, The USAAF's lost a similar number, but my guess is that it was the far from defenceless Germans.

Not forgetting Soviet air force losses for 1945:

По советским данным, в 1945 г. боевые потери советской авиации составили 4100 боевых самолетов, таким образом, среднемесячные потери равнялись 1025 самолетам.

According to Soviet data, in 1945 the combat losses of the Soviet aviation amounted to 4,100 combat aircraft, thus the average monthly losses were equal to 1,025 aircraft.

ВОЕННАЯ ЛИТЕРАТУРА --[ Военная история ]-- Швабедиссен В. Сталинские соколы: Анализ действий советской авиации в 1941-1945 гг.

 

[pbehn]

That I don't deny. The idea was to show that at the end of the war the Luftwaffe were quite capable of putting up a strong defence, which I thought it did.

As I remember it the last places to fall silent in Berlin were the air defence towers. Approximately half of losses were due to flak and things other than night fighters, accidents collisions etc. Flying ops at that time were dangerous in themselves without any enemy action, 25 aircraft were lost in the Berlin Airlift.

 

[Greyman]

For what it's worth ...

January 1944
Heavy guns

Germany 6,716 -- Western Front 1,225 -- Eastern Front 1,430 -- other fronts 1,815​

Medium and Light guns

Germany 8,484 -- Western Front 4,200 -- Eastern Front 2,412 -- other fronts 2,412​

Searchlights

Germany 6,320 -- Western Front 560 -- Eastern Front 576 -- other fronts 384​

Barrage Balloons

Germany 1,968 -- Western Front 288 -- Eastern Front 96 -- other fronts 24​

March 1945
Heavy guns

Germany 5,614 -- Western Front 1,384 -- Eastern Front 2,952​

Medium and Light guns

Germany 3,984 -- Western Front 3,398 -- Eastern Front 3,942​

Searchlights

Germany 4,880 -- Western Front 544 -- Eastern Front 256​

Barrage Balloons

Germany 1,464 -- Western Front 12 -- Eastern Front 48​

​

Western Front is France, Holland, Belgium, etc.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

Here are some Bomber Command aircraft damaged and lost on the nights of 7/8 through 10/11 March 1945. Source is British National Archives AIR 14/3460. Each loss is listed as squadron, aircraft code, serial, days to repair, so "100 J PA177 4d" is No. 100 Squadron, aircraft code J, serial PA177, four days to repair.



Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - Air War Publications

 

[Dimlee]

For what it's worth ...

January 1944
Heavy guns

Germany 6,716 -- Western Front 1,225 -- Eastern Front 1,430 -- other fronts 1,815​

Medium and Light guns

Germany 8,484 -- Western Front 4,200 -- Eastern Front 2,412 -- other fronts 2,412​

Searchlights

Germany 6,320 -- Western Front 560 -- Eastern Front 576 -- other fronts 384​

Barrage Balloons

Germany 1,968 -- Western Front 288 -- Eastern Front 96 -- other fronts 24​

March 1945
Heavy guns

Germany 5,614 -- Western Front 1,384 -- Eastern Front 2,952​

Medium and Light guns

Germany 3,984 -- Western Front 3,398 -- Eastern Front 3,942​

Searchlights

Germany 4,880 -- Western Front 544 -- Eastern Front 256​

Barrage Balloons

Germany 1,464 -- Western Front 12 -- Eastern Front 48​

​

Western Front is France, Holland, Belgium, etc.

View attachment 609627

Very interesting figures. What is the source?

 

[Greyman]

Harris' postwar despatch.

Looking closer at the original, I see the numbers on German guns/searchlights/etc. are based on intel reports -- so I think a grain of salt required.

 

[Dimlee]

Harris' postwar despatch.

Looking closer at the original, I see the numbers on German guns/searchlights/etc. are based on intel reports -- so I think a grain of salt required.

Thanks. This one, I believe. Adding to future reading list...
https://amzn.to/3adoQ9A

 

[Greyman]

Yeah, that's gotta be it.