RAF Bomber Losses - Very Late 1944, or mostly 1945, please (Single Night)

[mikemike]

Harris' postwar despatch.

Looking closer at the original, I see the numbers on German guns/searchlights/etc. are based on intel reports -- so I think a grain of salt required.

The 1944 numbers for heavy AA guns are close to the mark - Harris has 11186, in reality there were about 11500. However, he has 9950 in March of 1945; Luftwaffe returns have about 12000 in February.

The discrepancy is larger in light AA guns Harris has 17508 in1944 and 11324 in 1945.
Here are Luftwaffe returns: 20mm single 19001 in 1944 - 10531 in 1945
20mm quad 2602(10408 barrels) - 3768 (15072 barrels)
37 mm 3358 - 4393
foreign production all calibers 2346 - 2510
in total: 35113 - 32506

These are just Luftwaffe numbers - you'd have to add Army and Navy numbers which in the case of 20mm weapons would be substantial. So Allied Intelligence severely underestimated light AA numbers. Low-level attacks against defended targets were by no means milk runs even in May of 1945, especially if you ran across 20mm quads with experienced crews. When the USAAF tried PTO tactics with A-26s against German targets, 12 of 12 were lost on the first attacks, mostly I think to light AA.

 

[33k in the air]

'

Can anyone point to a "large loss" of RAF Bomber a/c, in ONE SINGLE NIGHT in 1945, as in 1945 alone.

.

For what it's worth, major missions in 1945 which might qualify, according to The Bomber Command War Diaries by Martin Middlebrook:

Jan. 5/6, 1945, raid on Hannover: 664 aircraft (340 Halifax, 310 Lancaster, 14 Mosquito) — 23 Halifax and 8 Lancaster lost (4.7% of force)
Mar. 5/6, 1945, raid on Chemnitz: 760 aircraft (498 Lancaster, 256 Halifax, 6 Mosquito) — 14 Lancaster and 8 Halifax lost (2.9% of fource), plus an additional 9 aircraft lost due to crashes caused by bad weather at start of operation.
Mar. 7/8, 1945, raid on Dessau: 531 aircraft (526 Lancaster, 5 Mosquito) — 18 Lancaster lost (3.4% of force)
Mar. 14/15, 1945, raid on Lutzkendorf: 255 aircraft (244 Lancaster, 11 Mosquito) — 18 Lancaster lost (7.1% of force)
Mar. 16/17, 1945, raid on Nuremberg: 293 aircraft (277 Lancaster, 16 Mosquito) — 24 Lancaster lost (8.2% of force)

 

[MikeMeech]

The 1944 numbers for heavy AA guns are close to the mark - Harris has 11186, in reality there were about 11500. However, he has 9950 in March of 1945; Luftwaffe returns have about 12000 in February.

The discrepancy is larger in light AA guns Harris has 17508 in1944 and 11324 in 1945.
Here are Luftwaffe returns: 20mm single 19001 in 1944 - 10531 in 1945
20mm quad 2602(10408 barrels) - 3768 (15072 barrels)
37 mm 3358 - 4393
foreign production all calibers 2346 - 2510
in total: 35113 - 32506

These are just Luftwaffe numbers - you'd have to add Army and Navy numbers which in the case of 20mm weapons would be substantial. So Allied Intelligence severely underestimated light AA numbers. Low-level attacks against defended targets were by no means milk runs even in May of 1945, especially if you ran across 20mm quads with experienced crews. When the USAAF tried PTO tactics with A-26s against German targets, 12 of 12 were lost on the first attacks, mostly I think to light AA.

Hi

The Flak arm in the German 'Army' was part of the Luftwaffe organisation so surely a Luftwaffe return would include those weapons with the 'army'?

Mike

 

[Jagan]

I can give you some data that might point you in the right direction

The top five days in 1945 with the highest number of RAF/Commonwealth deaths tied to aircraft losses in Europe (All commands)

1945-02-21 222
1945-01-05 175
1945-03-05 140
1945-03-21 139
1945-02-02 136

I would think 1945-01-05 is close to Operation Boddenplate, so 1945-02-21 is the day with highest losses.

All the deaths can be viewed here RAF CWGC War Dead Query 1945-02-21

A "by aircraft" list of losses for this day is here: RAF SEAC Aircraft Losses - :: 1945-02-21

-----------------------------------------------------------

Same question for 1944 fetches the following

1944-03-31 558
1944-02-20 452
1944-07-29 372
1944-05-04 302
1944-06-13 282

 

[SaparotRob]

Eye opening stats. As I read in another thread, after the Allied landings aircraft losses were decreasing.

 

[pbehn]

Eye opening stats. As I read in another thread, after the Allied landings aircraft losses were decreasing.

By which measure? Absolute numbers or percentage of planes involved?

 

[SaparotRob]

Just looking at the number of fatalities posted above and someone posted a graph showing a decrease in aircraft losses after June, 1944. That's about as statistical as I get.

 

[Jagan]

More stats - sombre numbers
http://www.rafcommands.com/database/wardead/charts.php

 

[nuuumannn]

Didn't "throw it back at him" (making a mockery of his B.S "claim"), as intuition leads me to believe, he's a "millennial"

Not really worth engaging with him, just ignore him. Best thing to do with an oxygen thief is starve it of oxygen.

 

[OliverHague]

For what it's worth ...

January 1944
Heavy guns

Germany 6,716 -- Western Front 1,225 -- Eastern Front 1,430 -- other fronts 1,815​

Medium and Light guns

Germany 8,484 -- Western Front 4,200 -- Eastern Front 2,412 -- other fronts 2,412​

Searchlights

Germany 6,320 -- Western Front 560 -- Eastern Front 576 -- other fronts 384​

Barrage Balloons

Germany 1,968 -- Western Front 288 -- Eastern Front 96 -- other fronts 24​

March 1945
Heavy guns

Germany 5,614 -- Western Front 1,384 -- Eastern Front 2,952​

Medium and Light guns

Germany 3,984 -- Western Front 3,398 -- Eastern Front 3,942​

Searchlights

Germany 4,880 -- Western Front 544 -- Eastern Front 256​

Barrage Balloons

Germany 1,464 -- Western Front 12 -- Eastern Front 48​

​

Western Front is France, Holland, Belgium, etc.

View attachment 609627

Where is this chart taken from? Some really interesting stuff on there.

 

[Dimlee]

Where is this chart taken from? Some really interesting stuff on there.

RAF Bomber Losses - Very Late 1944, or mostly 1945, please (Single Night)

 

[mikemike]

Hi

The Flak arm in the German 'Army' was part of the Luftwaffe organisation so surely a Luftwaffe return would include those weapons with the 'army'?

Mike

No, not quite. While most of the heavy AA that operated in conjunction with the Army were in Luftwaffe units, the Army had its own light AA (20/37 mm) - Heeresflak. For instance, in 1940, first-line Army infantry divisions had 12 20mm guns in the Anti-Tank battalion, in addition to 36 37mm AT guns. The Waffen-SS even had their own heavy AA batteries; originally the SS had no units above Division level, so SS Divisions had what amounted to a slice of Corps- and Army-level units in their establishment . The Kriegsmarine also had AA units to defend Navy bases and installations, including 105 mm guns in armored turrets at important locations (like Brest or Lorient). So the Luftwaffe returns don't show the complete picture.