Ready for El Alamein: ideal British tanks (1 Viewer)

[stug3]

Crusader tanks in the Western Desert, 1942

Crews of Crusader tanks resting beside their vehicles

 

[fastmongrel]

I know the Crusader wasnt the best tank in the world (though not as bad as some people believe) but it is one of the best looking tanks ever built..

 

[vinnye]

Totally agree, the Crusader was a good looking tank. I believe someone explained that a lot of the early reliability issues were down to poor preparation for transportation etc?

 

[fastmongrel]

Totally agree, the Crusader was a good looking tank. I believe someone explained that a lot of the early reliability issues were down to poor preparation for transportation etc?

I read a book about the Desert campaign where it said that the radiators were drained before being shipped. No one thought to tell the people who had to drive them from the wharf to the rail head so the tanks were driving at low speed (no airflow) on an engine that was known for being a bit hot running with no water in the rad or block. Also the air cooling fans were driven by a chain that needed a lot of maintenance and was in the direct line of all the dust blowing though the fans. Nuffield sent over teams to sort out the problems and apparently the problems were solved but by that time the Army had lost confidence in them and only wanted US tanks.

 

[stug3]

A knocked-out PzKpfw IV Ausf F2 tank, 6 September 1942

A British 6-pdr anti-tank gun in action in the desert, 3 September 1942

British troops use rocks for shelter as a German Kettenkrad tracked motorcycle burns in the background, 10 September 1942.

'Australians storm a strongpoint'. A posed portrait of Australian troops advancing during the Second Battle of El Alamein

 

[MacArther]

One thing I've wondered is why the British didn't invest in TD temporary designs in the darker days leading up to El Alamein? Something along the lines of the German's mounting a 47mm on a Pzr I chassis with the gun shield and everything, except with a 6 pounder on a older chassis.

 

[vinnye]

Some interesting footage of the 6pdr ;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DBhto48bnM

 

[fastmongrel]

One thing I've wondered is why the British didn't invest in TD temporary designs in the darker days leading up to El Alamein? Something along the lines of the German's mounting a 47mm on a Pzr I chassis with the gun shield and everything, except with a 6 pounder on a older chassis.

AEC Deacon

 

[vinnye]

Another view ;
http://www.warwheels.net/images/AEC_Deacon_leftfront_HAUGH.jpg

 

[vinnye]

This would have been very useful ;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Archer_SP_17_pdr_Tank_Destroyer.jpg

 

[MacArther]

I see the Deacon, but why not an older tank chassis?

 

[vinnye]

The ARCHER 17pdr spg, from Wiki ;
The Valentine chassis was soon chosen, as it was in production but obsolescent as a tank in British use and was also one of the few chassis that could accommodate such a large gun.[citation needed]The engine in the Archer had a higher power rating than in the Valentine.[2] The Valentine had a small hull and it was not possible to use a turret, the gun was mounted in a simple, low, open-topped armoured box, very much like the early Panzerjäger German self-propelled guns in appearance, with the gun facing to the rear which kept the length of the Archer short. The mounting allowed for 11 degrees of traverse to either side with elevation from -7.5 to +15 degrees

 

[MacArther]

But didn't the Archer only appear in 1944? A little late for El Alamein....

 

[vinnye]

True, but the Valentine was available, so its chassis was available and the 17 pdr was being delivered (in small numbers) in late 1941.
So it was a bit of a stretch to get Archer for Alamein, but the components were there!

 

[Shortround6]

True, but the Valentine was available, so its chassis was available and the 17 pdr was being delivered (in small numbers) in late 1941.
So it was a bit of a stretch to get Archer for Alamein, but the components were there!

No, they weren't.

There were 4 17pdrs delivered in 1941. They were the prototype guns for testing. Approval for production came in the spring of 1942 after testing. There were There were 670-699 guns (not carriages) built in all of 1942. They wanted the M-10 chassis but since those would be late in coming they started work on the Archer. It took around a year for start of work to start of production ( the British had had enough of ordering things "of the drawing board".

Please add shipping time around Africa to time from factory door to service use in North Africa.

 

[stug3]

A newly-arrived Sherman tank being loaded onto a 'Z' craft to be taken ashore at Port Tewfik, Egypt, 9 September 1942. The American built tank was at last putting British armour on an equal footing with the firepower of the Panzers. -

A soldiers stops to inspect the grave of a German tank crew, killed when their PzKpfw III tank, seen in the background, was knocked out in recent fighting in the Western Desert, 29 September 1942

 

[parsifal]

A newly-arrived Sherman tank being loaded onto a 'Z' craft to be taken ashore at Port Tewfik, Egypt, 9 September 1942. The American built tank was at last putting British armour on an equal footing with the firepower of the Panzers

I think only the PzKpfw IV (F) was superior to the Shermasn, but all other tanks in DAKs inventory were not as good as the Sherman.. And there were pitifully few Mk IV specials availble compared to the Sherman. At the time of Alamein, I believe about 50, compared to over 250 Shermans

 

[MacArther]

I think only the PzKpfw IV (F) was superior to the Shermasn, but all other tanks in DAKs inventory were not as good as the Sherman.. And there were pitifully few Mk IV specials availble compared to the Sherman. At the time of Alamein, I believe about 50, compared to over 250 Shermans

Yeah, but DAK had plenty of AT guns and 88s to knock out those Sherman's.

 

[yulzari]

The key point about the Sherman (and Grant) was the ability of the 75mm (an ex pre-WW1 field gun design) to fire effective HE at anti tank guns. This was exactly what the British tanks lacked. It was almost incidental that the 75mm could cope with most german tanks at the time.

 

[stug3]

A Crusader tank of 4th Light Armoured Brigade in the Western Desert, September 1942.

The crew of a Crusader tank prepare a meal in the Western Desert, September 1942.