Reichsverteidigung

Do you know anythign about claims and losses for those units.

Jg 301 and 302 is just plain screwed up and I know that friend Jerry Crandall will have a complete well at least as much as possible claims-kills liosting for the JG 301 when he produces his work. His JG 301 book although will be more about the pilots and especailly the a/c so I am looking very much forward to his new material on the Ta 512, but the dora 9 will be covered as well as Bf 109G-6's and the Fw 190A's that served with the Geschwader.

In Reschkes book only Soviet kills are mentioned by the Ta 152 only and that is silly....

ah an interesting notation dated 14 January 1945. A pilot in Gruppenstab I./JG was shot down in action with a Spitfire piloting a new Dora 9 after he himself had downed a Spit at 09.20 for his first kill.....

Geschwader stab and the I. gruppen stab had now received some Dora 9's. Also the Geschwader stab of JG 11.

I./JG 1 shot down 2 Spitfires for a loss of 12 a/c and 11 KIA on 14 Janauary 45. Funny this date is known as Einsatz west and not Reich defence as JG 300 was on a terrible mission agasint 15th AF B-17's that had come into southern Germany. Both the P-51's and the JG 300 really took it to each other and at least 12 B-17's fell.

for einsatz West, some 22 Luftwaffe Gruppen took on US and RAF fighters, claiming some 10 RAF a/c including 9 Spitfires and 11 P-47's and 3 P-51's. the Luftwaffe lost heavily with 92 German a/c destroyed and 57 pilots killed and 22 wounded.

this does not include victories/losses from JG 300 for the above date

simple note from the data base.

Stab./JG 11 had 4 Dora 9's with 3 operational on 20th of March 1945. 96 Fw 190A-8/A-9's and 48 109 G-14's/G-10's and K-4's for the other 3 gruppen

Erich:

Since you are fond of the topic, i recall the Luftwaffe lists of confirmed kills for the Reichsverteidigung jagdgeschwadern.

There was a day of November 1944, when the Luftwaffe shot down -heavy bombers and fighters- some 110 enemy planes, having JG 300 as one of the main players.

Do you recall the precise day?

Are you talking about Nov. 2, 1944 Merseberg Raid (I may be spelling it wrong). I also am not sure if that is the raid. I only have one account from the 471st bomb group with accounts of heavy losses for them and other groups that day but no confirmations.

not much happened in November really, well that depends I suppose on how you look at it........ November 2, 1944 was a hell hole for both the US and the Luftwaffe.

91st bg lost 13 B-17's to SturmFw's
457th bg lost 9 plus to SturmFw's and high cover Bf 109G's.

IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacked the 91st bg
II. Sturm/JG 4 with III./JG 4 attacked the 457th bg.

JG 27 claimed 7 P-51's this date and the Flak batteries claimed 32 heavy bombers..... nonsense !

in all Germany claimed 80 heavy bombers alone for the date.

The Luftwaffe supplied I. and II./JG 3 flying Bf 109G-14's, they lost 22 personell.
I., III., and IV./JG 4 providing G-14's and III. gruppe also having G-10's. the 3 gruppen lost around 11 casualities

All of JG 27 flying Bf 109G-14's and K-4's lost 38 personell.

I./JG 400 flying the Me 163 Komet flew briefly and lost 3 pilots

the 2 SturmFw units lost some 24 killed and wounded in their heavy Fw 190A-8/R2's and R8's.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

erratic fighter vs fighter combat for much of November 44 until the 21st.

this date my cousin flew his 1-2nd mission ?

I.JG 1 flying Fw 190A's lost 20
III./JG 2 lost 1
III./JG 4 lost 4
II./JG 27 lost 5
IV./JG 54 flying with JG 27 in their Fw 190A-8's lost 5

I./JG 300 flying 109G-14/AS lost 3
IV./JG 300 flying 109G's lost 4

my cousins unit:

all of JG 301 flew and attacke a B-17 pulk knocking about the US 398th bg. 10Fw 190A's came out of the clouds and especially pounced on the 603rd sq losing 7 bombers, in all some 12-15 bombers were shot down by the Geschwader. The losses for JG 301 were a total of 20 pilots KIA or wounded. Losses of 25 Fw 190A's. JG 301 was given credit for 6 B-17's and 1 P-51 although it has been confirmed by the B-17 personell of the 398th that they indeed lost at least 12 possibly 15 to the rear attack............total confusion.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

26 November 1944 over Misburg, one of the worst air battles over the Reich. Not sure of the total number of claims but it could of been over 100 easily.

I. and II./JG 1 lost 14
III./JG 6 lost 12

III./JG 26 lost 2

all of JG 27 was invovled and lost 18

IV./Jg 54 flying with JG 27 lost 2

JG 301 attacked enmasse with my cousin being shot down and KIA south of Misburg. flying Fw 190A-8's and A-9's JG 301 claimed a total of 56-60 B-24's from the 445th and 491st bomb groups. In reality according to US archivs and the historians for both bomb groups that I have interviewed extensively, the 445th lost 5 B-24's and the 491st 16.
German credits were given after the claims nullified and gone over closely, JG 301 was given 3 B-17's and 11 B-24's and 1 P-51 as confirmed. The B-17's were actually B-24's.
JG 301 lost 38 pilots KIA and over 51 Fw 190A's in action.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Novemeber 27, 1944 a slaughter of the Jagdgeschwader

I. and III./JG 26 lost 5
III. and IV./JG 27 lost 7
IV./JG 54 lost 4

I./JG 300 lost 12 109's with 3 KIA
II.Sturm/JG 300 lost 12 Fw 190A-8/R's with 11 KIA
III./JG 300 lost 12 109's with 7 KIA
IV./JG 300 lost 3 109's with 1 KIA

I./JG 301 and II. gruppe lost 14 Fw 190A-9's with 7 KIA and 4 wounded.

a terrible performance as a total of 9 P-51's could be confirmed and 1 P-47. The Luftwaffe was met before it could set up esepcailly JG 300 who were caught before they could attack the US heavy bombers. Out- numbered the Jagdfliegers could only hope to fire and bank away vertically and zoom up 500 above ground and flat out run for cover while 8-15 P-51's would be on their tails, that is how strong the Allied presence was over the Reich.

I have a note here that on 30 November 1944 the I./JG 300 with Bf 109's as Höhenjäger protection over II.Sturm/JG 300 attacked heavy pulk formations.

I see a listing of 11 B-17's lost from the 1st BD and 17 B-17's lost from the 3rd BD. Am not sure right at the present which bomb division or bomb groups that JG 300 attacked. This was a date of frightful weather and "FAT" man was present at JG 300 HQ trying to force Walter Dahl to commit all of the JG 300 Geschwader ...................

E ~

DerAdler and Erich:

ok, i found the god damned notebook.

The day i was referring to is November 26, 1944:

All claims bear the Anerkennung with certificate and number for each kill.

Heavy bombers destroyed: 108 (B-24s and B-17s)
Fighters destroyed: 20 (the majority P-51s).

TOTAL: 128 PLANES (usaaf)

The German units involved:

stab I and II, 1., 2., 5., 8., 9., 10., 11. and 12./JG 301 (at least 50% of the kills of the day, taking the brunt of the fight of the day), and
JG 1, JG 4, JG 6 and JG 7.

My notes show the names of 3 German aces which had victories that day:
(consistent with the records of those pilots which i have had the chance of crossing with the info of Nov 26.)

Willy Reschke of 9./JG 301 killing a B-24
Wilhelm Steinmann of stab I./JG 4 who swallowed (2) two P-47s.
Josef Keil of 10./JG 301 who chewed (2) two B-24s.

I am fond of both Reschke and Keil for they would eventually be stars in the stab/JG 301 in 1945.

Noteworthy to mention is the fact this numbers imply a powerful and skilled Luftwaffe, and please see the day and month of the year: last week of November 1944, a date frequently depicted by allied historians as either a "Luftwaffe free" europe or of "pilots hardly capable of taking off". Illiterate hoghwash! Crap!

Yes, surely the Luftwaffe took important losses on that particular day, but those inflicted to the USAAF are horrific.

We are talking about a day when some 1,100 USAAF pilots and airmen did not return to base for dinner god damn it. Schweinfurt in 1943 is left well behind in blackness for the USAAF. Add those who got lost to Flak and accidents. It would be interesting to know what the mood was upon return to their bases.

Let´s suppose the Luftwaffe lost some 80 or 90 or 100 fighter pilots KIA on that day, we are talking about a USAAF suffering 9 or 10 times more men lost -most KIAs- in the same day.

That is one of the very ugly cons of heavy bombers. You lose one and that is a lot people going down with the toy.

Also what is true is the fact losses for Luftwaffe had a more significant impact within their ranks; but such losses are dramatic for a country like the USA where they do not show the contempt for the lives of their warriors the soviet way. So this losses are not be diminished in both significance and impact within the ranks of the USAAF.

just so you are aware my friend I have a 4 inch thick file just on 26 November 44 alone. And this file has been accumulated for many many years due to my cousins operations and his subsquent loss in battle this date.

Almost every article written on this very aerial engagement is full of errors, even the Tony Woods listing from Freiburg is incorrect.

JG 27 and IV./JG 54 flew together.

JG 1's and JG 6 were in the same area and overlapped in their attacks.

Jg 301 was by itself and attacked the 2nd BD B-24's almost single-handedly. had it not been for the intervention of the P-51's of the 2nd Scouting force and the whole of the 339th fg then JG 301 would most probably have wiped out all of the 2nd BD, at least the 491st which they almost did and the 445th which was ahead of them. the 389th bg was far in advance of the other 2 B-24 bomb groups and did not feel the sting of the Luftwaffe except for one loss.

JG 301 confirmations have been given to :

Anton Benning with a B-24 and a P-51
Walter Blicke with a B-24
Heinrich Dörr with 2 B-17's - should be 2 B-24s
Hermann Dürr 1 B-17 - shlould be a B-24
Will Greiner with 2 B-24's
Jupp Keil with 2 B-24's
Will Reschke with 1 B-24
Bubi Blum with 1 B-24
Walter Scheller with a B-17 - should be a B-24
Herbert Seifert 1 B-24
Hans Todt with 1 B-24
Hans Müller 3 B-24's confirmed !
Jonny Wiegeshoff 1 B-24
Hermann Stahl 1 B-24
Rudi Michaelis 1 B-24
Julius Berliner (Will Reschkes wingman) 1 B-24

only Blickle and Müller were not from III./JG 301

III. gruppe was the Schwere gruppe and I. and II./JG 301 flying Fw 190A-9 and A-9/R11's were to be the top cover for the ehavy group. both the gruppen had 1 light staffel and 1 heavy staffel which was developed in October 44 for their first missions in November. they and although not armed with the big SturmFw the III. gruppe had some unarmored A-8/R2's which both Berliner and Reschke flew on this date. In any case when JG 301 could attack as a Gefechstverband it was to form and attack from the rear like a Sturmgruppe breaking off into small 3 man flights and attack like an arrow through a small bomber pulk.

side note

Udet I am well awre of the Freiburg listings and the 56 plus bombers/fighters that JG 301 scored but the tally was recounted after the claims had gone in and at least 1/2 could not be documented and were dissallowed. Even the German records after this activity did not give full credit to JG 301's attack but I have listed whom scored as a confirmation. I also have all the losses records of JG 301 this date and to tell you the turth it is very sad. here is one lad, robbed of his youth

Erich:

What was that all about? I did not suggest anything that might put your experience and knowledge on the matter into doubt.

You have admitted you still have stuff yet to be learned though.

The units and numbers i posted include all Luftwaffe victories in the entire west on November 26, 1944; they did not focus on a specific battle or engagement.

But i am sure you got the point, so the remark is not necessary.

Now the questions:

(1) Are you suggesting the anerkennung for November -with the exception of the pilots you cited- are false?

If so, someone made them up?


(2) You are mentioning 25 confirmed kills for JG 301 only. Do you have any confirmed victories for the other units who flew everywhere in the west during November 26?


(3) I did not get your point when mentioning JG 27 and IV./ JG 54 flew together. Meaning they would scramble together from each base to attack?

What was the point in mentioning those geschwadern?

You know that by late 1944, there were days where units simply did not fly, whether to lick the wounds of the previous day battle or the lack of fuel.

If a specific JG in Reichsverteidigung does not appear in the claims list of a given day, you can check the logs of that unit and know the reason or reasons as to why they do not appear. Perhaps they did not fly that day.

Udet we obviously have a problem with our communication it appears. I do not think you understand my basis for making the remarks that I did. First I have been studying this aerial battle for more than 20 years and have had access to both US and German archivs besides at least 6 German researchers, a German artist/Historian and a Swiss researcher and several US P-51 pilots from the 2nd SF and the 339th fg as I am a friend of the group. if you would like I can list all the Luftw. units involved for the 26 November attack agasint the heavies and can ssure you it did not reach 128.

more later as my time has run out and will explain why JG 27 and IV./JG 54 flew together as well as JG 1 and 6.

Erich:

You said:

"just so you are aware my friend I have a 4 inch thick file just on 26 November 44 alone. And this file has been accumulated for many many years due to my cousins operations and his subsquent loss in battle this date."

That is why my "what was that all about?"

That i did not put into doubt the knowledge and experience you have on the matter.

I would appreciate it very greatly if you could explain a bit further on the questions i made.

ok the annerk. you mentioned is for what was put in as a claim and had to be verified. Because it is late 1944 onward till wars end there was no official tabluture of victoires any more. This had to be done by the Jagdgeschwadern historians themselves.

a couple of things not all Jagdgeschwaders are covered in writing, example being the gruppe FW 190A-8 equipped IV./JG 54 as one.

the unit took of from a seperate base and then came into contact with JG 27 and felw right behind it as part of JG 27's attacking force agasint B-17's. The same goes for JG 1 and JG 6 when they attacked B-17's.

JG 301 had 22 confirmed kills not 25. The 56 were presented due to the complete chaos of the mission. the 56 wqere presented and sent into the oficial documenting source and then rejected when the gorunds were covered showing/photograhing and IDing the ture US losses. what can be said with confidence is the German pilot losses this date. I have questions regarding this date with answers hopefully in a weeks time from Hans Müller and Will Reschke so I will translate them out and prsent them here in due course.

yes I have the kills claimed by the other Geschwadern and will post them shortly. A side line another more noted air battle involving over 100 kills is the 11 january 1944 raid. I have a close Dutch friend covering this mission with some interesting info. A book from another Dutch author has been written on the air battle through Hikkoki publications from England.

for 26 November 44

Stab./JG 1 1 4 motor bomber
I./JG 1 0
II./JG 1 2 B-24............no it was B-17's

I./JG 4 1 P-38, 2 P-47's

III./JG 6 2 B-24 ............no it was B-17's

I./JG 26 1 P-51
III./JG 26 4 B-24..........no they were B-17's, and 1 Spitfire

I./JG 27 1 P-51
II./JG 27 1 P-51, and 1 P-47
III./JG 27 1 P-51
IV./JG 27 2 B-17, 4 P-51, 1 P-47

IV./JG 54 1 B-17 of the 381st bg, and 6 other B-17's HSS (shot out of formation)

JG 301: I gave what was listed as what was confirmed and in reality they shot down 22 B-24's, the names of the pilots are given in a previous post. Not the claims listed in Freiburgs Chef für Auszeichnung und Disziplin which is the overall CLAIMS lists NOT confirmations of the units recorded by the seperate unit historians and administratiors.

alrightie then.................here's another one that I have been researching for quite some time.

During the Ardenne fiasco: 23.12.44

where US medium bomber forces were sent to plaster rail and road cross-roads and airifelds supported by US P-38's, P-47's and P-51's.

A huge amount of claims were given for this date esepcailly by JG's 11 and the STurmFw gruppe IV.Sturm/JG 3.

135 German a/c were shot down with 64 KIA and 4 POW and 36 wounded.

IVth gruppe of JG 3 probably destroyed 1/2 of of a B-26 and part of another on their rear attacks with the losses of 8 Fw 190A-8/R8's. My friend Oskar Bösch lost his engine due to his fule line being shot out as he crept closer and closer to the B-26 formation, a P-47 assaulted his SturmFw and he banked over hard and the Jug flew away. Oskar was a first hand witness to the destructive power of 2cm and 3cm weaponry from his kameraden as the Mine Geschoss tore the tails off numerous B-26's. After the days event the Sturm unit ws given credit for 31 B-26's and 3 P-47's. In the Official IV./JG 3 history they are given the same credit with FW Harry Wald scoring 3 kills. The overall 9th AF history gives a total loss of 42 B-26's for the day and some 14 P-47's and 2 P-38's. 8th AF lost 1 B-17 and 5 P-51 and 3 P-47's.

the other high scorer flying behind a different B-26 group, possibly 2 claimed by I. and II./JG 11 anopther 25 B-26's.

29 single engine gruppen took part in this huge action claiming

33 P-47's
3 P-38's
6 P-51's
! Spitfire
1 Mosquito

6 Lancasters
1 B-17
73 B-26's

a real oddity, when I interviewed the two historians of the 2 B-26's goups that IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacked I was given a reply that no B-26 history existed and what you will find is already on the net........... a single page of garbage covering an overall history of the units and citations they received. Each one receiving a commendation, etc. for their participation on the horrid 23 December 44 air battle, nothing on losses or even the pics or coverage of the land taget that they reached.

Erich the raid that is in question on Nov, 26, 1944, is that the raid that you cousin was shot down on? By the way I have not made it back up to the site maybe next weekend.

yes you are correct Eagle ! thanks for rejoining on the efforts. Take the little Mrs. out for a wurst and Bier afterward or maybe since this area is north a nice glas of Wein ?

Wanted to finish the 23 December 44 thread by stating that Oskar bailed out really low due to having former members of the Gruppe shot down while in their parachutes so it was ordered that the Sturmgruppen pilots bail out at around 500 feet of the deck. Oskar pulled the chute but it partially collapsed and he fell fortunately into some tall spruce trees filled with snow which broke his fall. hanging by his parachute he tried first to get down and slowly cutting the slings of the chute. having done that he climbed down ever so softly but kept busting out limbs of all sizes until he fell some 60 or so feet and landed in a huge snow drift. having twisted his leg he managed to get out as night was approaching. Seeing a small village in the distance he hobbled over to a couple of soliders who then were able to release his parachute and get Oskar back on the nearest train for base the following day as he was thought to be MIA.

That would be a story to tell your grandkids!