Rising Sun warbirds

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 12, 2005

That is what pretty much kept Japan in the war. They were not understood by the allies even before the war started. If you look though at the way the fighting went, sure the Japanese were fearless soldiers and the jungle fighting lasted months and years, but overall they were not the deady military that they were thought to be at first.

plan_D · Aug 12, 2005

The only reason Burma lasted so long was because it was at the bottom of the supply and manpower priorities. Plus the fact they basically had to build the country as they advanced.

I finished that book, now I'm reading Monte Cassino by Matthew Parker. I must have some infatuation with conflicts that revolve around engineers. The unsung heroes of any war!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 13, 2005

That I will agree with you. Engineers are a great reason why most battles are won.

Nonskimmer · Aug 13, 2005

plan_D said:
...engineers. The unsung heroes of any war!

Too true. They're invaluable.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 13, 2005

Parmigiano · Aug 13, 2005

R Leonard said:
USN aircraft lost in combat from 7 December 1941 through 6 June 1942:

Carrier aircraft:
To enemy aircraft: 68
To enemy AA fire: 28

Land-based aircraft:
To enemy aircraft: 33
To enemy AA fire: 5

and

Land-based aircraft (USMC):
To enemy aircraft: 22
To enemy AA fire: 4

Rich

There is something strange with numbers!
Rich reported this statistics of negligible losses, but when we look at some production numbers, FOR INSTANCE at the main US naval fighter of the time (F4F Wildcat, delivered starting Nov. 1941) we see a production of about 7900 aircraft, of wich at least 6600 were built before Grumman gave production to GM in mid 1942.
Given that only a few were lost in action, and even considering that a few hundreds went to other Air Forces, where all the remaining thousands went? Were they all scrapped ?

syscom3 · Aug 13, 2005

The stats on USN aircraft lost were for the first 6 months of the war, through the battle of Midway. These stats dont show what was about to happen in the Guadalcanal campaign.

There were two main battles fought in the first 6 months. Coral Sea and Midway. At that time of the war, carrier battles were small in terms of aircraft participating, cause ony a few carriers were in use.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 13, 2005

Parmigiano said:
R Leonard said:

USN aircraft lost in combat from 7 December 1941 through 6 June 1942:

Carrier aircraft:
To enemy aircraft: 68
To enemy AA fire: 28

Land-based aircraft:
To enemy aircraft: 33
To enemy AA fire: 5

and

Land-based aircraft (USMC):
To enemy aircraft: 22
To enemy AA fire: 4

Rich

Click to expand...

There is something strange with numbers!
Rich reported this statistics of negligible losses, but when we look at some production numbers, FOR INSTANCE at the main US naval fighter of the time (F4F Wildcat, delivered starting Nov. 1941) we see a production of about 7900 aircraft, of wich at least 6600 were built before Grumman gave production to GM in mid 1942.
Given that only a few were lost in action, and even considering that a few hundreds went to other Air Forces, where all the remaining thousands went? Were they all scrapped ?

YES THEY WERE - after WW2 someting like 120,000 aircraft were scrapped here in the US. Check the numbers of operational US aircraft after the war, many were used by training squadrons into the late 1940s.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 13, 2005

syscom3 said:
The stats on USN aircraft lost were for the first 6 months of the war, through the battle of Midway. These stats dont show what was about to happen in the Guadalcanal campaign.

There were two main battles fought in the first 6 months. Coral Sea and Midway. At that time of the war, carrier battles were small in terms of aircraft participating, cause ony a few carriers were in use.

So let's include Guadalcanal, there the F4F had at least a 3 to 1 kill ratio over the Zero. Many of the aircraft lost at Guadalcanal were lost on the ground. The remaining F4s has to keep up a high Kill ratio or Guadalcanal would of fallen, and as we know it didn't......

Bottom line the major fighter of Guadalcanal was the F4F and still dominated the Zero....

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 13, 2005

I think we have proven that.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 13, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I think we have proven that.

Yep - the mystical Zero was a Zero!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 13, 2005

Well most people will see that.

GregP · Aug 13, 2005

Hey! The Fiesler Storch was a stealth fighter! If painted to resemble a haystack, the rest of the fighters couldn't see it as they flew by at high speed, so it was almost invisible.

Other fighters could easily be shot down by an alert Storch pilot, who only had to make the haystack seem to rise by climbing. Startled opposition pilots were rendered speechless and probably flew into the ground.

The power-to-weight ratio was superior to a Morris Minor.

R Leonard · Aug 14, 2005

Rich reported this statistics of negligible losses, but when we look at some production numbers, FOR INSTANCE at the main US naval fighter of the time (F4F Wildcat, delivered starting Nov. 1941) we see a production of about 7900 aircraft, of wich at least 6600 were built before Grumman gave production to GM in mid 1942.

Losses through 6 June 1942 were ALL USN combat losses, not just F4F.

I think you need to check your F4F numbers; the Grumman F4F-3, F4F-3A, and F4F-4 production totaled 1550; 285, 95, and 1170 (including 1 XF4F-4), respectively. Most F4Fs were produced before September 1942, though production continued into December. There were also 21 F4F-7's, 2 XF4F-8, and one each XF4F-2, XF4F-5 and XF4F-6. Also, the first USN squadron to receive the F4F was VF-4 in November 1940.

There were at least 25 USN or USMC squadrons that saw combat with the F4F-3, F4F-3A, or F4F-4. Strengths of these squadrons varied from a low of about 18 F4F-3 or 3As at the beginning of the war to 36 F4F-4s by the fall of 1942 and into the summer of 1943. And there were, what, some 485 or more F4F-3, -3A, and -4 that went to the FAA (including 20 that were lost when their transport was torpedoed).

Anyway, F4F production was far below your noted 6660. On the otherhand, FM-1 and FM-2 production ran to 5837, 1060 and 4777 respectively.

Regards,

Rich

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 14, 2005

Well either way, the numbers speak for themselves and I think it proves what was better, Zero or the Wildcats, Hellcats, etc.

Chocks away! · Aug 14, 2005

Are we all forgetting that some Japanese aces achieved maybe up to a fundred kills in Zeros? Or that a certain ace flying a lightning was shot down by a Zero when slowing down to dogfight? Or that many renowned aces perished thus? I don't recall the name of said ace at the moment but i'll research a bit

Chocks away! · Aug 14, 2005

Furthermore i'd say the late war A6M5 was a rather potent aircraft, not as fragile as the well known A6M2 and could threaten any allied plane if flown well.

Parmigiano · Aug 14, 2005

Rich,

yes, I understood that your figures referenced all losses, I used the example of the F4F to highlight the big gap between the delivered aircrafts and the related losses.
If you include all the US aircraft in line in 1941-42 (dauntless, buffalos, P40 etc.) the gap between lost in war and scrapped is even bigger.

About production figures, I just googled the net and all numbers I found agreed on a production of about 7900, here is some source

http://www.warbirdalley.com/f4f.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/f4f.htm
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/us/F4FWILDC.html

And yes, 1941 was a typing mistake!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 14, 2005

Well lets see the highest Japanese Army Ace was W/O Hiromichi Shinohara with 58 victories, and the highest Japanese Navy ace was Hiroyoshi Nishizawa with 87 kills. That is not quite a 100 my friend.

wmaxt · Aug 14, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Well lets see the highest Japanese Army Ace was W/O Hiromichi Shinohara with 58 victories, and the highest Japanese Navy ace was Hiroyoshi Nishizawa with 87 kills. That is not quite a 100 my friend.

The list I have quotes Nishizawa at 103 as Japans leading ace. Is there some contention against some of his kills?

wmaxt

Rising Sun warbirds

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Lieutenant Colonel

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Captain

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Senior Airman

Pacific Historian

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Private Chemtrail Disperser

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Major

Staff Sergeant

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Senior Airman

Senior Airman

Senior Airman

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Staff Sergeant

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads