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The 15"/42 was probably the best all round heavy gun and mount combination ever to go to sea but by 1939 it was past its best. With hindsight we can see that a KGV built with the 15/42 would have been better in 1941 but expecting the RN to fit Grannies teeth to a new battlewagon isnt going to happen it would be like fitting Vickers .303s to a Spitfire.
Hi, fast,
Would we consider the KGV's 14in to be superior to the 15''/42 in firepower (ie. without taking reliability into equation)?
For general audience: was the 4x2 15in battleship feasible, to sport same size/weight, levels of speed and protection as the historical KGV?
By 1945 USN torpedoes were reliable too. That doesn't help during 1941 when weapon reliability was a matter of life or death for British and American military personnel.
they were reliable long before 1945, Duke of York disabled the Scharnhorst in 43!
Yes but seems still not quite optimal.
"Many, if not most, of these problems had been corrected by 1943. During the early part of her action against Scharnhorst at the Battle of the North Cape on 26 December 1943, HMS Duke of York scored 31 straddles out of 52 broadsides fired and during the latter part she scored 21 straddles out of 25 broadsides, a very creditable gunnery performance. In total, Duke of York fired 450 shells in 77 broadsides. However, HMS Duke of York still fired less than 70% of her possible output during this battle because of mechanical and "errors in drill" problems."
From: Britain 14"/45 (35.6 cm) Mark VII
I just found this on a website -
HMS Rodney, British battleship, WW2
RODNEY fired two types of salvo, the outer guns of A and X plus the inner gun of B in a five gun salvo followed by the inner guns of A and Y and the outer guns of B in a four gun salvo and this is how she initially engaged the German ship. The reason for this pattern of firing was an attempt to limit self inflicted damage form the blast of her own guns.
At about 0930 hours a 16in shell from RODNEY penetrated BISMARCK's deck armour and exploded in the port engine room killing most of the crew and putting the engine room out of action
HOW IS POSSIBLE TO COMPARE DoY conditions of fire with that of S? S was under attack by many ships,was taking damage by many ships, damaged by previus fight, with her main radar destroyed ,with a useless and dangerous commander, and under the threat of DDs . Also had lost Anton turret immediately. She had to run and was running. Only occasionaly was turing south to fire her guns.The battle of the North Cape was fought in appalling weather, weather so bad a large cruiser like HMS Belfast was only able to reach 24 knots and still suffered storm damage. Duke of York was sailing at top speed into a Sou Westerly gale pitching 40 plus feet rolling 20 plus degrees shipping water over the bows, had all pumps working to clear water getting into the gun mounts and was at action stations for 10 1/2 hours, at shooting stations for 3 and a 1/2 hours and only managed to fire 77 salvos of which 52 were straddles.
We dont have Scharnhorsts records so we cant know how many failed to fire she suffered but under the same conditions as DoY she didnt manage to fire much faster even though theoretically she had a firing rate twice as fast as DoY. I imagine Sch-t had similar problems with 700 pound AP shells jumping out of hoists and crews getting tired and resulting in errors.
That both DoY and Sch-t managed to fight in such bad weather is astonishing that DoY managed to shoot 70% of possible shots is astonishing.
If anyone can find an action fought under similar conditions by similar units where the ships managed to fire better than 70% then we can talk about reliability.
HOW IS POSSIBLE TO COMPARE DoY conditions of fire with that of S? S was under attack by many ships,was taking damage by many ships, damaged by previus fight, with her main radar destroyed ,with a useless and dangerous commander, and under the threat of DDs . Also had lost Anton turret immediately. She had to run and was running. Only occasionaly was turing south to fire her guns.
And you use her rate of fire on such conditions to justify DoY s rate of fire? Unbelievable
I did not use anything other than the weather to justify DoYs or Schts rate of fire and I am particulary annoyed that you attack me without even apparently reading what I wrote. If English isnt your first language then that is understandable if English is your first language then you are simply trolling. Scharnhorst fought bravely and I respect the memory of her crew, Captain Hintze and Adm Bey. I do not know which particular person you are referring to as useless and dangerous, if either Bey or Hintze made mistakes then so be it no one is perfect. Your attack on a man who died at his post doing his best is revolting and you obviously have no understanding of the action nor any understanding of the pressure of command when facing superior forces and given an impossible mission by a lunatic Charlie Chaplin impersonator who obviously understood even less than you do of naval combat.
Go away do some reading about the action and Beys responses to circumstances. Then you can come back and we can discuss the Battle of the North Cape. However I wont discuss with you the conduct of men whom Adm Fraser eulogised, saying after the battle to the crew of DoY "Gentlemen, the battle against Scharnhorst has ended in victory for us. I hope that if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, you will command your ship as gallantly as Scharnhorst was commanded today"
I did not use anything other than the weather to justify DoYs or Schts rate of fire and I am particulary annoyed that you attack me without even apparently reading what I wrote. If English isnt your first language then that is understandable if English is your first language then you are simply trolling. Scharnhorst fought bravely and I respect the memory of her crew, Captain Hintze and Adm Bey. I do not know which particular person you are referring to as useless and dangerous, if either Bey or Hintze made mistakes then so be it no one is perfect. Your attack on a man who died at his post doing his best is revolting and you obviously have no understanding of the action nor any understanding of the pressure of command when facing superior forces and given an impossible mission by a lunatic Charlie Chaplin impersonator who obviously understood even less than you do of naval combat.
Go away do some reading about the action and Beys responses to circumstances. Then you can come back and we can discuss the Battle of the North Cape. However I wont discuss with you the conduct of men whom Adm Fraser eulogised, saying after the battle to the crew of DoY "Gentlemen, the battle against Scharnhorst has ended in victory for us. I hope that if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, you will command your ship as gallantly as Scharnhorst was commanded today"
Jim wanted to point out that SH had other circumstances than DoY!
You used S rof as point of reference for DoY rate of fire
Fair comments from all partipants IMHO.
I do not see though many reason to bash Bey. Yes, different decisions could have been taken, but that's very much with the benefit of hindsight. Bey for example could have no idea of the disposition of the DoY task force, and I find it hard to particularly blame him for maintaining radio and radar silence. He wanted to disengage and loose his pursuants, and he probably knew very well that his radar would give away his position far beyond the range it would pick up contacts. The Germans had fairly effective naval passive systems, and assumed (probably right) that the enemy task force has such too. Come to think of it, Bismarck's passive sets were capable of picking up the pursuing PoW's radar signals even by when the PoW had already lost contact. If he had switched on radar he might as well turned on all searchlights and put a big sign on the bridge saying 'Here I am, come catch me'..
I wonder though if Scharnhorst passive sonars had picked up anything though before DoY made radar contact.
Fair comments from all partipants IMHO.
I do not see though many reason to bash Bey. Yes, different decisions could have been taken, but that's very much with the benefit of hindsight. Bey for example could have no idea of the disposition of the DoY task force, and I find it hard to particularly blame him for maintaining radio and radar silence. He wanted to disengage and loose his pursuants, and he probably knew very well that his radar would give away his position far beyond the range it would pick up contacts. The Germans had fairly effective naval passive systems, and assumed (probably right) that the enemy task force has such too. Come to think of it, Bismarck's passive sets were capable of picking up the pursuing PoW's radar signals even by when the PoW had already lost contact. If he had switched on radar he might as well turned on all searchlights and put a big sign on the bridge saying 'Here I am, come catch me'..
I wonder though if Scharnhorst passive sonars had picked up anything though before DoY made radar contact.