Russian aircraft parts, found in Spain

[gillescollaveri]

dear all,
I was contacted by someone who found A/C parts in Spain, in Taragone, South East of Ginestar.
Parts were found on the base of a local testimony.
The witness was young at that time and he remembers that :
- it was a biplane
- it was flying South East / Noth west
- there were two crew members, they were killed
- it was in August 1938
these parts have some marking :
"K2" on a an aluminium part, "
bAK" on an electrical wire shaft,
"123" on a portion of what seems to be a radial engine,
a cartridge 7.62 mm with marking "shKAS".
Can anyone help identify this aircraft ?
Thanks
Gilles

 

[Wurger]

If it is going to be a soviet two-seater biplane I would say that could be either the Polikarpov RZ Natacha or Polikarpov R-5.

 

[Juanita]

Are you able to check local newspapers from the time?

 

[bf109xxl]

If it is going to be a soviet two-seater biplane I would say that could be either the Polikarpov RZ Natacha or Polikarpov R-5.

Hmm... Although ShKASs were fitted to the R-Z and SSS, the part of the radial engine cylinder points more towards the I-16.

 

[Wurger]

Hmm... Although ShKASs were fitted to the R-Z and SSS, the part of the radial engine cylinder points more towards the I-16.

It was also my first thought as well. I thought about the I-15/I-15bis or I-153 as Gillescollaveri mantioned it was the biplane. Because of the wing shape the kites could be confused with a biplane by people who couldn't differentiate one type from the onother one. But again Gillescollaveri says ...

- there were two crew members, they were killed

So this excludes a single seater like the I-15/I-15bis/I-153 and I-16 that was the monoplane in addition.

 

[bf109xxl]

It was also my first thought as well. I thought about the I-15/I-15bis or I-153 as Gillescollaveri mantioned it was the biplane.

Either two I-16s collided, or this is not part of the finned cylinder of the radial engine, which is more likely. The I-15/I-15bis were armed with PV-1 MGs, the I-153 was not delivered to Spain.

 

[Wurger]

Either two I-16s collided, or this is not part of the finned cylinder of the radial engine, which is more likely. The I-15/I-15bis were armed with PV-1 MGs, the I-153 was not delivered to Spain.

Two I-16 collided .. humm ... you may be right. Regarding the PV-1 MG. IIRC the ealy varinats of the I-16 had the PV-1 MGs installed as well. Starting with I-16 Type 10 aircraft, just drawing on Spanish experience, it was decided to strengthen the armament. In connection with this, the 7.62 ShKAS machine guns were mounted. The ShKas machine gun was introduced in 1940 so it should be quite rare to find the MGs on the Spanish planes in 1938. Unless I'm wrong.

And one more thing ... the cartrige for the ShKas MG was actullay the Mossin one. To differentiate it from the ordinary rifle ammo it had the '"Ш" letter pressed at the bottom of the shell-case. I haven't seen any of the ShKas cartrige with the whole "ШКАС" marking.

 

[bf109xxl]

Regarding the PV-1 MG. IIRC the ealy varinats of the I-16 had the PV-1 MGs installed as well. Starting with I-16 Type 10 aircraft, just drawing on Spanish experience, it was decided to strengthen the armament. In connection with this, the 7.62 ShKAS machine guns were mounted. The ShKas machine gun was intriduced in 1940 so it should be quite rare to find the MGs on the Spanish planes in 1938. Unless I'm wrong.

The ShKAS were installed on I-16s from the very beginning - from type 4, on type 5 there were two ShKAS in the wing, initially there were numerous problems with them, but by 1935 most of them were eliminated. I-16 type 5 from Bryansk were the first to get to Spain, they were fitted with ShKAS. Type 10s were fitted with two additional ShKAS based on the Spanish experience.

And one more thing ... the cartrige for the ShKas MG was actullay the Mossin one. To differentiate it from the ordinary rifle ammo it had the '"Ш" letter pressed at the bottom of the shell-case. I haven't seen any of the ShKas cartrige with the whole "ШКАС" marking.

 

[Wurger]

The ShKAS were installed on I-16s from the very beginning - from type 4, on type 5 there were two ShKAS in the wing, initially there were numerous problems with them, but by 1935 most of them were eliminated. I-16 type 5 from Bryansk were the first to get to Spain, they were fitted with ShKAS. Type 10s were fitted with two additional ShKAS based on the Spanish experience.

View attachment 836007
View attachment 836008

OK. According to the russian sources the ShKas MGs were installed with the I-16 type 4 in 1935. Earlier there were the two PV-1 MGs. Also the marking on the cartrige is correct. The the '"Ш" letter pressed at the bottom of the shell-case can be noticed ( usually at the 9 o'clock location ) . The full name "ШКАС" was printed on the wooden boxes with the cartriges packed in the metal cans. Additionally there was printed a sign of a propeller painted either black or red depending on the ammo that could be used either for the synchronized MGs or not in sync ones.

Anyway your idea of the collided two I-16 sounds good.

 

[bf109xxl]

Anyway your idea of the collided two I-16 sounds good.

I've seen mention of two I-15s colliding, but I never heard about the loss of two _Soviet_ I-16 pilots in the collision, perhaps Spanish-language sources are more informative about Spanish pilot losses. The version that the finned part is not from a radial motor cylinder seems more probable to me.

PS. Thanks for the translation!

 

[gillescollaveri]

I guess that more information gathered on site could help.
I shall ask my contact to try to know more locally, get precisions and I shall let you know the results;
Thanks for your inputs , guys
Gilles

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

This weekend will try to search vol 3 of my books about the spanish republic air forces and tell you what I can find

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

A fast search only note one action by R-5 or R-Z in august 1938 some where nor or less the crash site, on 23rd. No losses reported. By then they were used mainly as coastal patrol aircraft.

Due a misunterdaning I only search for 2 twin seat aircraft crash, one been reported on october 2nd of 2 Delfines (Grumman FF) CD-001 and CD-005, most probably due bad weather.

IMO, the R-5 or R-Z can be discarded if the crash was in august, as the Grummans (no news about arming them with ShKAS, but in despertate times you never know for sure and bookeeping wasn't a priority then for sure).

Will look for two I-16 colliding.

G gillescollaveri anything mew from your contact?

 

[bf109xxl]

Will look for two I-16 colliding.

Thank you for your efforts! I'm curious about any details.

 

[gillescollaveri]

Thank you for your efforts! I'm curious about any details.

as soon as I get some feedback from my contact I let you know;
I cross fingers that he can obtain more info.
Gilles

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

These are the republican fighter losses in august 1938 in the Battle of the Ebro as presented innLa Aviación Republicana Tomo III from 2006, which I think is the most complete and up to date book about republican aviation.

Gandesa was the focus of the fight and not too far to the SE from Ginestar.

- August 1st, two I-15 Chato lossed to enemy CR.32.

- August 3rd, one I-16 type 10 Súpermosca loss due engine failure. Pilot took the parachute and landed in republican territory, no info about the other.

- August 5th, one I-16 type 10 Súpermosca loss in combat. Pilot KIA.

- August 12th, two I-16 lossed in air combat. No reference of the type or the squadron, so could no info if a type 5, 6 or 10. One pilot landed in republican territory, no info about the other.

- August 13th, one I-16 collided with enemy AC and pilot took the parachute. Type 5 or 6.

- August 14th, one I-16 type 10 Súpermosca loss with pilot KIFA.

- August 15th, two I-16 type 5 or 6 Mosca loss in combat. The two pilots KIA.

- August 19th, two I-16 type 5 or 6 Mosca loss in combat. The two pilots KIA.

- August 20th, one I-16 type 10 Súpermosca loss with pilot KIA.

- August 23rd, two I-16 type 5 or 6 lossed with one pilot KIA and the other hit the silk. Both soviet.

- August 24th, two I-16 type 5 or 6 collided with both pilots killed. One unspecified republican aircraft down with pilot POW.

- August 25th, two I-16 unknow type lossed in combat with both pilots parachute.

If the remains are from the collision of two I-16, the august 24th accident must be the origin.

Various SB Katiuskas were also shot down innthis period but although they were armed with ShKAS MGs, since they were three crew monoplanes seems not likely candidates.

Interestingly, others biplane aircraft were downed little outside the august time frame but close enough:

- July 27th, two Delfines collided when CD-004 tried to avoid AA fire and crashed in to CD-033 while strafing the Gandesa-Batea road.

- September 2nd, one Delfín downed by AA fire. This was strafing and bombing in Tremp, far north of Ginestar to my opinion.

As mentioned earlier, the Delfín was the Grumman FF, more precisely the Canadian Car & Foundry G-23, license built. They were purchased by the republicans by means of forged documents as to be purchased by Turkey but it was detected and the full order wasn't complete. 34 out of 50 were delivered.

It was usual practice that aircraft for the republic weren't armed when delivered. Since the G-23 were mean to be sent to Turkey they probably were armed with Browning MGs but a probable lack of spare parts for them can't rule out that some could had been rearmed with ShKAS.

 

[gillescollaveri]

thanks .
Stay in touch.
Best regards
Gilles

 

[bf109xxl]

These are the republican fighter losses in august 1938 in the Battle of the Ebro as presented innLa Aviación Republicana Tomo III from 2006, which I think is the most complete and up to date book about republican aviation.

Thank you so much again!
I can only mention that these data do not always agree with the data from the book "Air War in Spain. Chronicle of Air Battles 1936-1939" by Sergei Abrosov, which is mainly written on the materials of Soviet archives. I cannot analyze the reliability of the sources because of my superficial knowledge of the subject. If interesting, I could translate brief summaries of losses for the above dates from Abrosov's book.

It was usual practice that aircraft for the republic weren't armed when delivered. Since the G-23 were mean to be sent to Turkey they probably were armed with Browning MGs but a probable lack of spare parts for them can't rule out that some could had been rearmed with ShKAS.

IIRC, I once came across a rather detailed Russian-language article about the installation of the ShKAS on non-Soviet aircraft in Spain. I'll try to find it again.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

If interesting, I could translate brief summaries of losses for the above dates from Abrosov's book.

That would be great.

IIRC, I once came across a rather detailed Russian-language article about the installation of the ShKAS on non-Soviet aircraft in Spain. I'll try to find it again.

This would be very nice also.

I can only mention that these data do not always agree with the data from the book "Air War in Spain. Chronicle of Air Battles 1936-1939" by Sergei Abrosov, which is mainly written on the materials of Soviet archives. I cannot analyze the reliability of the sources because of my superficial knowledge of the subject.

That is a common ocurrence when one side is on the retreat and ends lossing the war, specially in civil wars. Records are destroyed and the high tempo of operations make book keeping difficult.

One difference could be that Abrosov is written mainly from soviet sources and maybe not so much from spanish ones.

The Aviación Republicana is sometimes at odds with The Legion Condor from Ries & Ring on Germán losses, either by the day or if there was a loss at all, but since the Aviación Republicana give some data like name and rank of the fallen germans, I tend to belive that is reliable enough.

 

[bf109xxl]

One difference could be that Abrosov is written mainly from soviet sources and maybe not so much from spanish ones.

Abrosov had access to archival materials - in particular, reports from Soviet air squadrons - on which it is possible to judge Soviet losses, but he still takes into account other sources (in particular - Spanish and German), on which he evaluates the losses of the Republicans (except the Soviet ones) and their opponents. How well he knows Spanish sources - I can't judge. But the book left a good impression.

Losses in July-August 1938 according to Abrosov:

- August 1st: 19:20 25 I-16s against 15 Bf.109s and 22 CR.32/He.51s, Republican losses - two I-16s, pilot Vicente Beltran Rodrigo parachuted out, Nationalist losses - one CR.32 (pilot Enrique Munaiz de Brea, KIA) and 1 He.51 (pilot name was not specified), in addition Horst Tietzen from 3.J/88 made an emergency landing.

- August 2nd: 3 I-16s were suddenly attacked by 20 Bf.109s, one I-16 returned to the airfield, two I-16s made an emergency landing on their territory; one Republican seaplane made an emergency landing on water, the crew was rescued.

- August 3rd, 3 I-16s were lost when returning after an SB escort to the Gandesa area, the reason was an unsuccessful landing at their airfield, two aircraft were written off, one was repaired, pilots Zyuzin, Glushkov and Zhuravlyov survived.

- August 5th, three air battles, Italians recognized the loss of one pilot (Luigi Ricci), in a crash, but most likely this crash was a consequence of the air battle; Soviet pilots had no losses, but two I-16s were crashed on landing (pilots Bykovsky and Zhuravlev, the planes were written off), one pilot made an emergency landing (Konovalov), the reason in all cases was insufficient control over fuel consumption and undisciplined pilots.

- August 9th, one I-16 crashed during the flight of Gritsevets's squadron to the front airfield, pilot Maksimenkov survived, the plane was written off, two planes collided while taxiing on the ground - minor repairs needed.

- August 12th, two SBs were shot down, one pilot was killed, the rest escaped by parachute, one I-16 (pilot Konovalov) separated from the formation and was fired by O.Bertram from 1.J/88. Konovalov's plane sustained a lot of damage and Konovalov himself was wounded, but he managed to land at his airfield. One I-15 was shot down on the Extremadura Front.

- August 13th, pilot Shaulov crashed his I-16 on landing, no information on the pilot's fate, but he was probably not injured.

- August 14th, two consecutive air battles with a total duration of about one hour, one I-16 made an emergency landing because of engine damage by He.111 gunners (pilot Kakutich received only bruises), two I-16s (pilots Glushkov and Fomin) suffered engine failures and landed at Reus airfield; pilot Lukovnikov on an I-16 collided with a CR.32 in a frontal attack, but at the last moment the CR.32 pilot went down, Lukovnikov's plane cut off the tail of the CR.32 with its propeller, then managed to return to his airfield.

- August 15th, one I-15 was shot down, the lightly wounded pilot escaped by parachute; pilot Pavlov's I-16 belly landed at Vendrel airfield because of battle damage, the pilot was not injured; pilot Turov's I-16 nosed over on landing, the pilot claimed to have been wounded before landing and the aircraft damaged by AA fire.

- August 18th, pilot Glushkov was ferrying a repaired I-16 but forgot to release the landing gear when landing, the belly landed plane could be repaired.

- August 19th, the Republicans lost three I-16s: one with Soviet pilot Vorob'yov and two with Spanish pilots (the names are not given), another I-16 of pilot Gerasimov was damaged, but landed at his airfield.

- August 20th, a rare case of a match - one I-16 (the Spanish pilot's surname is not specified) was missing, another I-16 pilot was wounded but landed at his airfield.

- August 23rd, also a match: pilot Pavlov was killed in an emergency landing by smashing his head on the sight of an I-16, pilot Volkov's I-16 belly landed at his airfield, pilot Maksimenkov's I-16 was shot down by anti-aircraft artillery in pursuit of a CR.32 - Maksimenkov parachuted out and was unharmed; another I-16 was shot down - according to some sources the pilot parachuted out, according to others he made an emergency landing, after which the plane burned out, the name of the Spanish pilot is not given; the Italians admit the loss of three CR.32s (Aldo Bracco was killed, Carlo Bonifaci was captured, Pió Tomaselli made an emergency landing).

- August 24th, an SB (crew commander Velichko) and two I-16s (both piloted by Spanish pilots, names were not specified) were shot down, one pilot MIA, the other escaped by parachute; pilot Boguslavchik's I-16 suffered combat damage to its landing gear and belly landed on its airfield; at least two CR.32s were shot down, pilots Arrechea Belzunce and Chapaprieta Inglado were captured.

- August 25th, no Republican aircraft losses were recorded; CR.32 "3-63" was shot down, pilot Jose M. Etayo Elizondo was killed.

- August 26th, two I-15s collided during an air battle, the pilots (names withheld) escaped by parachute.

- July 27th, a match - Abrosov mentioned two Grumman-type planes which did not return from the mission.

- September 2nd, one Delfín downed by AA fire. - According to Abrosov it happened on September 3rd.