Search and Rescue!

stona · Sep 20, 2013

redcoat said:
It's not just the area they were flying in, it was the role they were engaged in as well.
There was nothing in the Geneva Convention which covered the rescue of unwounded aircrew/sailors from danger.

That is so, but the legal argument for shooting them down would be based on their position which would fall foul of this condition.

"In the absence of special and express permission, flying over the firing line, and over the zone situated in front of clearing or dressing stations, and generally over all enemy territory or territory occupied by the enemy, is prohibited."

The legality was never tested, not least because we won.

Cheers

Steve

meatloaf109 · Sep 20, 2013

stona said:
The Luftwaffe used a similar system to that later adopted by the allies. The position of the downed crew was given either by them or their colleagues and where possible his position would be orbited to ensure that the rescue service could find them/him. This was the best chance of being found. It didn't work every time. Helmut Wick was seen to parachute into the see but still disappeared without trace and he was by no means the only one.
The chances of a random pilot being found by the Luftwaffe rescue service in the English Channel were very remote, which is why it rarely happened. Both sides would have picked up any survivor that they found. Finding them is the problem.
My father flew SAR helicopters from Malta after he converted from fixed wing in the early '50s. he told me that even when they had a good idea of the position in which an aircraft had gone down it was not at all unusual to find absolutely nothing . No wreckage, no slick, and no survivors.
I distinctly remember a TV show about the "Bermuda Triangle" whose main premise was that something weird was going on because stuff disappeared without trace. My dad said this was entirely usual in the ocean and that the programme was a "load of ********"
Cheers
Steve

That was entirely correct. It was/is a standing joke in the USCG that the "Bermuda Triangle" encompasses every bit of water in the world, including mud puddles.

fastmongrel · Sep 21, 2013

A good few years ago surplus RAF aircrew immersion suits were very popular wear for yachtsmen. The attached boots, rubber neck and wrist gaskets kept the water out plus the fabric they were made of Ventile meant they were comfortable to wear waterproof and they had handy pockets for a marlin spike and a rigging knife plus of course chocolate bars. They were much heavier than purpose made yachting waterproofs and didnt shed water but they were much more comfortable and didnt make you smell like a wet dog.

fastmongrel · Sep 21, 2013

meatloaf109 said:
That was entirely correct. It was/is a standing joke in the USCG that the "Bermuda Triangle" encompasses every bit of water in the world, including mud puddles.

My local beach is jokingly known as the 4x4 Triangle. The beach is wide and generally flat and 4x4 morons like to drive flat out along the tide line not realising the tide can cut deep channels in the sand so every few months some idiot thinks its a good idea to go for a drive in the shallow water. Its fun right up to the point your 4x4 turns into a 50mph submarine as it crash dives into a 6 foot deep tidal channel that is cunningly disguised as shallow water. Its impossible to rescue the vehicles but for people in the know its a good source of spare parts as long as you get them in time before salt water ruins them.

mikec1 · Sep 29, 2013

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Mike
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stona · Sep 30, 2013

Churchill also wanted RAF pilots to shoot down German aircrew in parachutes during the Battle of Britain. It was Dowding who over ruled this arguing that as they were descending to almost certain captivity they were already effectively prisoners of war. He also feared that if the RAF routinely adopted the practice there would be an inevitable reaction and escalation from the Luftwaffe. It is this latter factor which I believe caused the shooting of men in parachutes throughout the war in the west to be a fairly infrequent, though by no means unknown, occurrence. It was a sort of self regulation.
Cheers
Steve

pattle · Sep 30, 2013

Allied bomber crews shot down over Germany in the closing stages of the war may well have preferred to have been at sea in a rubber dinghy than on dry land in a number of cases. The Luftwaffe whilst being an unwelcome site in the air was often their best hope of survival if shot down on German soil, especially if these airmen found themselves near a heavily bombed city or town.

redcoat · Sep 30, 2013

stona said:
Churchill also wanted RAF pilots to shoot down German aircrew in parachutes during the Battle of Britain. It was Dowding who over ruled this arguing that as they were descending to almost certain captivity they were already effectively prisoners of war. He also feared that if the RAF routinely adopted the practice there would be an inevitable reaction and escalation from the Luftwaffe. It is this latter factor which I believe caused the shooting of men in parachutes throughout the war in the west to be a fairly infrequent, though by no means unknown, occurrence. It was a sort of self regulation.
Cheers
Steve

The discussion between Churchill and Dowding on this subject was an informal talk at a dinner party, and it was Churchill who was totally opposed to the shooting of aircrew who had baled out, but Dowding took the view that aircrew who baled out over enemy territory should not be shot as they would soon become POW's, but those who baled out over friendly territory could be shot as they would be able to return to combat within hours.
However, this was just an informal talk and no official guidelines were ever issued to RAF aircrew on this subject.

stona · Nov 4, 2015

The first marked Luftwaffe air sea rescue aircraft was forced down, by Spitfires of 54 Squadron, before the official BoB. This was an He 59. It was unarmed and its crew were registered with the Red Cross. They had already rescued both German and British airmen off the Norwegian coast. Why then did the RAF continue to engage these aircraft?

Dowding wrote an explanation in 1941:

"Throughout the Battle [of Britain] of course, fighting continually occurred over the sea, and German aircraft, damaged over England, had to return across the Straits of Dover or over the English Channel. Far more German than British crews fell into the sea. The Germans therefore developed an elaborate system of sea rescue. Their bombers had inflatable rubber dinghies, and various other rescue devices were adopted. Crews were provided with bags of a chemical known as fluorescein, a small quantity of which stained a large area of water a vivid green. Floating refuges with provisions and wireless sets were anchored off the French coast. 'E Boats' and rescue launches were extensively employed, and white painted float planes, marked with the Red Cross, were used even in the midst of battle. We had to make it known to the Germans that we could not countenance the use of the Red Cross in this manner. They were engaged in rescuing combatants and taking them back to fight again, and they were also in a position, if granted immunity, to make valuable reconnaissance reports. In spite of this, surviving crews of these aircraft appeared to be surprised and aggrieved at being shot down."

So Dowding did some grim arithmetic. Because relatively few British airmen were going into the sea and because if rescued, unlike their German counterparts they would not be returned to combat but become prisoners of war, he was not prepared to allow the Luftwaffe's air sea rescue service aircraft to freely operate to rescue anyone. It was better to lose a few of his own than allow the repatriation of many more of the enemy's.

The Germans vehemently denied that these aircraft ever undertook any sort of reconnaissance missions and there is little if any evidence to support the contention that they did. Even Dowding only raises the possibility, not actually accusing them of doing so.

Cheers

Steve

Search and Rescue!

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stona

Major

meatloaf109

1st Lieutenant

fastmongrel

1st Sergeant

fastmongrel

1st Sergeant

mikec1

Banned

stona

Major

pattle

Senior Airman

redcoat

Senior Airman

stona

Major

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