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It is quite possible for all the opinions to be correct. When you outnumber the enemy by 7 to 1 its possible you rarely see them and so proceed unmolested enjoying the controls and radio. When you meet the enemy late in the conflict and he has only a few hours training maybe you do have the upper hand. In other circumstances meeting a trained pilot on a 1 to 1 basis you are in a very bad position.But... but... HOW can that be SO? We have data that PROVES the P-39 was superior, especially in climb, to the the Fw-190!!!
Just how does one start a thread here?
Thanks--HansieIf you click on the top banner and scroll down below the "Recent Posts" you'll find a list of the available forums. Click on the one that best suits your needs (in this case, probably "WW2 General"). At the top right, you should find a button allowing you to create a new thread. Click that, add a title and write your message.
Pimm's Cup-- OK, the first round is on me--I wonder if the late Queen Victoria called her husband Albert "Bertie"-- I read somewhere that she preferred that German be spoken in her family, as well as English.. Any truth to that??I think some of us need a Pimm's or two after that interchange
The French in North Africa were supplied with P-39Ns in April 1943.Deliveries of P-39Ns started in December 1942. They weren't in service in 1942.
Deliveries of the P-39N Airacobra to the USAAF began in November 1942.
P-40 was available earlier and in greater quantities than the P-39, let alone the P-51A that entered the service with RAF by June 1943.
Tomo,
Where did you get this information? The first deliveries of the P-51A that I am aware of
were in September 1943 to the 23rd Fighter Group of the 9th Air Force...?
Tomo,
Where did you get this information? The first deliveries of the P-51A that I am aware of
were in September 1943 to the 23rd Fighter Group of the 9th Air Force...?
Smarty pants...Germans were using Bf-109s???
And here we hit "what is a delivery"?
Test flown and signed off as accepted in Buffalo New York is a long way from any combat zone.
You have two basic ways of getting P-39s to combat zones, knocked down and crated for rail transport to a seaport.
Flown to airfield near seaport and towed to dock and cocooned for sea transport.
For Russia you can fly them to Alaska and then over the Bering strait.
For Britain, The Med and for the Pacific they went by ship.
And for the most part, had to reassembled or de-cocooned and test flown before being placed in service.
Getting P-39Ns into service in the SWP in Dec of 1942 seems just about impossible.
Actually, I looked up the Royal families on Wikipedia- Albert, later King George V1- was called "Bertie" by his family members, his wife was named Elizabeth, as was their oldest of two daughters, now the present Monarch- but apparently was called "Libideth" by her loving father, Albert.Strange because it was not commonly known that Elizabeth called her husband Bertie until the film was shown I didn't know, you are educated by Hollywood. That whole post acts as a summary of the movie, the director would be proud.
Thanks for the information, always nice to know who my head of state is, Ive just realised she is the only one I've ever had, so hopefully I wont forget. Did they have any children or grandchildren? Does this have anything to do with P-39sActually, I looked up the Royal families on Wikipedia- Albert, later King George V1- was called "Bertie" by his family members, his wife was named Elizabeth, as was their oldest of two daughters, now the present Monarch- but apparently was called "Libideth" by her loving father, Albert.
I'm quoting Edwards Park who was in the AAF and served at Port Moresby, NG. In his book "Angels Twenty" he states that he arrived in NG in December '42 and was issued a brand new P-39N. He's a well known writer and journalist who wrote for Aviation Week and others. Not beyond the realm of possibility, those P-39Ns were just the next version on the production line and their new feature was a newer version of the V-1710. When the last P-39-M rolled out the first N was right behind it. Right after a quick check and test flight they shipped or flew out. At that point in time Bell was rolling out 400 P-39s per month. They had already manufactured 2000+ and pretty much had the process down.Agreed, which is why I have a hard time with Mr. P-39's assertion of:
""Gestation" was very short, production began in December '42 and P-39Ns were serving that same month in New Guinea."
I don't see how they could get from Buffalo to New Guinea in like, two weeks?
Look at your date on the bottom of the third graph: Oct 25 '44. And these graphs typically are prior to the actual production models since they were testing prototypes. You may not agree with me that the Luftwaffe was beaten in March '44, but you should have no doubt that that they were done by October '44. If the production machines actually saw combat it would be a minor miracle.The increased boost was certainly used on the Fw 190A8, going from previous limit of 1.42 ata to 1.58 or 1.65. Against the previous climbs done at 2400 rpm, the climb at 2700 rpm using as much of the boost as possible reduced time to 8 km by more than 1/4. Shaded areas on the speed & climb graph show performance when over-boost ('Erhoehte Notleistung') was used. Text also notes that overboost via C3 injection was allowed for both S/C speeds, allowed up to 10 minutes. Hopefuly your German is up to the speed, if not the 3rd pic is the translated perf graph:
View attachment 486624 View attachment 486627 View attachment 486628
Look at your date on the bottom of the third graph: Oct 25 '44. And these graphs typically are prior to the actual production models since they were testing prototypes.
You may not agree with me that the Luftwaffe was beaten in March '44, but you should have no doubt that that they were done by October '44. If the production machines actually saw combat it would be a minor miracle.
Thanks for your comments. Let me rephrase, I have stated that the air war for fighters was over in March '44. I should have said that the Luftwaffe (and the Japanese) were beaten by March '44. In other words, very little opposition by the Germans and Japanese fighters after that date. No the war wasn't over, but you were very unlikely to encounter enemy fighters after March '44. Plenty of bomber missions, escort, ground attack, flak, ground fire etc. left, but not many enemy fighters.First off, you're welcome, no harm no foul, hope you don't take offense to anything I type, it's not intended to belittle or insult.
Uh, there are guys here far more able than I to address some of your points above. Actually, I think they already have but YMMV.
Again though, a P-39 ( any ) able to climb faster than say a P-38 to 25,000'? If that were so why weren't they used in New Guinea for that purpose? Or Guadalcanal?
As for the air war being over for fighters by March of '44... Perhaps drgondog or bobbysocks can enlighten you on that a bit, seeing as how their fathers were Mustang pilots at the time.
Lt. Runnels can set you straight on that as well.
I will unequivocally call bollocks on your contention of this myself as my uncle on my mothers side ( her brother ) was there at the time in Mustangs as well, if he were still alive I believe he'd have quite a good laugh ( or scoff ) at that statement.
Okay, but being wartime and all, wouldn't the issue date come pretty close after the actual test date?The date on a document is the issuing date, not the testing date.
Since you are so hot on using the WW2 performance site, there are tests for the Spitfire IX from Oct '42 to Oct '44. Using your logic, the Spitfire IX wasn't in service til after Oct '44.
There was 154 Fw190A-8s delivered in March 1944.
Okay, but being wartime and all, wouldn't the issue date come pretty close after the actual test date?
I am hot on wwiiaircraftperformance. An Oct '42 test of the Spitfire IX would indicate that version of the IX would probably be about to start production or have already started production at that time. Unless the test states differently. Wouldn't you agree?