Shores seems to have found more data since he wrote those, because the P-40F losses definitely doesn't match the data in MAW II and III
S
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I've not the link but i can paste that i've saved
"From Shores' Fighters over Tunisia:
62 x Kittyhawk for 25 x Bf-109
58 x P-40F for 33 x Bf-109
Gee, Bell never had a 390mph prototype, regardless of whether or not it had guns.Oh yes, I think Mr. Shortround detailed it pretty good right out of the book. They had other P-400s but Bell modified this one and got 393mph out of it then the others were going 370mph or so. Actually met the contract for speed. But it was only one plane.
Shores seems to have found more data since he wrote those, because the P-40F losses definitely doesn't match the data in MAW II and III
S
what are the data of MAW II&III?
Glad you asked. Weight wasn't the important part, it was the drag of the external gunpods that reduced top (and all) speeds.
In all this much seems to hang on what the British did or didn't, should and shouldn't have believed. Well the Spitfire was about 30MPH faster than the Hurricane so engine power isn't proof of performance. By the time the P-39 arrived the Spitfire MkV was in service with the MkI an Mk II already retired from front line service. For example, along with NAA paying a lot of attention to cooling drag and also low drag wing profiles the method of construction and attention to joints probably meant that Bells filling and painting only achieved what NAA did on every aircraft. This is not unreasonable to expect, there were efforts to do the same on the Spitfire with different rivets etc, but its harder to do when production has started. Things like the Mosquito and P51, FW190 was what most would reasonably expect of a new aircraft in 1941.Gee, Bell never had a 390mph prototype, regardless of whether or not it had guns.
The XP-39B first flew on Nov 25th 1939 and belly landed on Jan 6th 1940, repaired and flown some more it crashes after 28 total hours.
The First YP-38 flies in Sept 13th 1940, also unarmed and around 3 month after the French and British order. One day after first flight of YP-38 the US orders 623 AIrcobras with wing guns and leak proof tanks.
Armed YP-38 makes 368mph? with 1090hp.
View attachment 488449
at 6592 lbs. Please note plane in picture has no guns
who thought an extra 60hp was going to add over 20mph to the plane? especially with extra weight and extra equipment?
WHy did Bell build that one-off special and devote all that time to the drag reduction measures and special paint?
ANd it's the British fault the production machines could come close to the contract speed?
For me part of the problem is claiming the XP-39 flew at 390mph in April of 1939.
This is around 60mph faster than the XP-40.
It is almost 30mph faster than MK I Spit with wooden prop and the SPit won't get even a two pitch prop for several more months.
The only non-race plane in the world that fast is the P-38 using two engine with turbos.
Now with new evidence (or actually LACK of evidence/documentation) it is very unlikely the XP-39 ever came anywhere near that.
So basically the Bell sales team was still going by engineering estimates (and wind tunnel data) and darn little flight testing when marketing the P-39 to the French and British. However the 390mph speed had been announced in a number of magazines of the time.
in fact a Feb 1940 issue of flight magazine describes the P-39 as a 400mph plus machine
bell aircraft | 1940 | 0526 | Flight Archive
with a picture of the XP-39B.
Granted in war time a bit of exaggeration was good propaganda.
I agree S/R but I don't think it is unreasonable for it to be believed, bearing in mind the rate of progress at the time.
I don't even believe they did. The British were disappointed with the performance but the test says it could be used at low level. The USA stopped shipments of many types because it wanted planes for themselves, with the invasion of Russia, the Russians they desperately wanted planes. Cancelling the contract is the easiest way to sort things out on paper especially since a lot of them were crated up and could be shipped anywhere. Since Russia's need would obviously be long term the British couldn't rely on it being supplied so took none (Just my opinion)Well, the British took the Bell figures on faith, got burned and now we have people blaming the British for not wanting to buy/take delivery of the planes that wouldn't meet the contract specifications.
TSK! TSK! Never say "plastic wood" or "Bondo" within earshot of an airplane!! In mech school we were reprimanded if either of those words were heard. "Airflow smoothing compound" is the professional and approved terminology. If the dirty words were heard by the wrong people you could be asked for the PMA number and official documentation approving its use.plastic wood
filling around the cockpit
Well, the original Q was whether the P-39 could handle the Zero.
I think we agree that the P-39D/F/P-400 of 1942 lacked the necessary attributes to overcome the disadvantages of inexperienced pilots, lack of sufficient warning to scramble to intercept altitude, insufficient range, lack of spare parts, lack of coordination within air force, etc. In mid 1943, when the improved performance of the P-39N came available, it was hampered by a lack of opposition because the P-38s had "moved the fight out of the combat radius of shorter ranged fighters."
I'm with buffnut and Greg Boeser. Let's call it a day. It's been entertaining and educational, but it's degenerating into a Lufberry orbitting around the same repeated arguments. I think any possible convincing has already happened, so what's to gain?
Cheers,
Wes
Sorry, I just can't stretch my credulity that far. You know, my dad worked at Bell Niagara in '44 and '45 and he never had anything good to say about the place. He had two part time jobs; afternoons he worked for the government as a DCAS inspector, and evenings he worked for Bell as a roving security patrol. A "double agent" if you will. His comments reminded me of my brief stint at Eastern Airlines: hate and discontent the order of the day. "Do onto others before they can do onto you!"In agreement but you just know it will be dragged and kicked until we all agree that the P-39N was the best aircraft there ever was