Some thoughts on "combat effectiveness/performance" factors that are often hidden.

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Please note how the word "pilot" is crossed out.... Why? Because there was no pilot...
and
Oh, and the word PILOT is crossed out.... :pilotsalute: Mmmmmh.
Once again I'm unsure if you are trolling or being serious. Since no-one addressed this particular objection of yours, here goes:

It is not the word "Pilot" that was crossed out, it is the word "Pilots'" - i.e. belonging to the pilots. The A.S.I. reading in that line refers to the airspeed indicator reading as noted by the pilots involved in the test. Probably during proof reading of one of the versions of the report, someone decided that it would be better to refer to it as the A.S.I.R. It is not explained anywhere, but I assume they wanted to call it "Air Speed Indicator Reading" to avoid confusion. It was a typed report, so the correction was made by hand. However, the original reports still says "Pilots' A.S.I.". What it was called is not important - what the value meant is important and that is clearly explained in the report.

The line above the "Pilots' A.S.I." reading (or "A.S.I.R" if you prefer) is the indicated airspeed after applying the PEC (position error correction). Apparently, the practice at the RAE was to call the ASI reading after the PEC correction "indicated airspeed". Today, we would refer to it as CAS (calibrated air speed), depending on which corrections were all applied. It is the airspeed before correcting for compressibility, which results in EAS (Equivalent Air Speed) and then for density ratio, which gives TAS (True Air Speed). CAS (or the corrected indicated air speed as used by the RAE in this particular report) is needed when calculating lift coefficient, which was indeed done and further discussed in the same report.

You could have known all of this if you read through the actual report (MORGAN, M. B. and MORRIS, D. E. "Messerschmitt Me. 109. Handling and manoeuvrability tests," ARC, R&M No. 2361, 1940). I'll quote the relevant explanation for you:
"Pitot-static Head and Estimated Position Error. A drawing of the pitot-static head is given in Fig. 8. It is situated underneath the port wing at 0.68s, and in terms of the local wing chord is 0.32c from the local leading edge and 0.155c below the under surface of the wing. For some of the tests (trim curves and aileron forces) it was desirable to convert pilots' A.S.I. to indicated airspeed so that CL​ could be deduced. Accordingly the position-error correction curve was estimated from A. & A.E.E. generalised curves; the estimated position error curve is plotted in Fig. 8."

and later:
Throughout this report speeds quoted are pilots' A.S.I. unless otherwise stated.

Oh, and before you ask: 0.68s means 68% of the span and 0.32c means 32% of the chord.

The PEC curve is then shown later in the report as Fig. 8, and in addition to the calculated trend line it includes two experimental reference points. The curve is very typical for traditional pitot-static systems mounted underneath the wing, in that the PEC is positive at low speeds (the A.S.I. under-reads) and negative at high speeds (the A.S.I. over-reads). The correction is zero at an A.S.I. reading of around 180 mph. The PEC curve given in the report is for the 109 only since, presumably, they would already have had a published PEC curve for the Spitfire at hand.

These are the real RAE figures I saw in at least 2 1990s books on the Spitfire, and later confirmed by at least one other source. Twenty or thirty years ago.
The figures from the posted table are also real RAE figures. It resulted from an extremely comprehensive series of flight tests - first in France and then in England. The aircraft was tested at the RAE during May and June 1940, flown by three of the RAE's test pilots during the evaluation, and they flew a total of 35 hours of performance and handling tests. It would be difficult to find a more comprehensive set of test results for a given model of the 109.
 
I recall reading (might have been Clostermann or Eric Brown?) that the German fighters had a more reclined position for the pilot, in particular feet higher up, than British ones, and this gave German pilots better G tolerance.
In late 1942 the Canadian Frank's G Suit was put into service by FAA 807 Sqn flying Seafires during Operation Torch. The Australian designer Cotton's G Suite was also used in 1942.
 
In North Africa several of the top DAF aces were rugby players, who had particularly thick muscular necks. Ten victory ace Nicky Bar talked specifically how he used to huff and puff and squeeze his neck so as not to pass out during hard turns, and he credits that with saving his life a couple of times.
 
For anyone interested, Mfezi is correct in his most#181 above.

Hey wrathofatlantis,
re
Please note how the word "pilot" is crossed out.... Why? Because there was no pilot...

THERE IS ZERO RATIONAL REASON TO THINK THIS IMPLIES THERE WAS NO PILOT.

I am sorry, I do not enjoy saying this to you, but you really need to stop reading something you do not understand and then simply making up an explanation for the thing you do not understand.

Mfezi is correct in everything he posted above in post#181.

Mfezi beat me to it since I figured you would not accept me just telling you this with a verbal reference, and it took me awhile to find the terminology reference put together by A&AEE for the "various Air Authorities". The change from (Pilot's A.S.I.) to "Pilot's A.S.I.R." was due to a later remark of a different agency.

The pdf below mentions the differences in notation/remark for some of the different agencies involved in the testing and publication of different materiel in the UK during and after WWII to at least 1951. It also gives reference to the equivalent terminology for the US. I suggest you read the entire "Notes On Definitions Of And Nomenclature For Airspeeds".

AND STOP MAKING THINGS UP TO EXPLAIN THINGS YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
 

Attachments

  • A&AEE LIST OF TERMS FOR IAS.pdf
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I thought this was interesting.
Screenshot_20260405_204611_Google Play services.jpg
 
I do it all the time. I'm old and I can get away with it.
But we like it when you do that.
At least you claim that you are in the "you know that you don't know" group, although I think in many cases you are in the "don't know that you know" category.
It is the "don't know that they don't know" crowd that are infuriating, particularly when they frightfully deluded that they are in "know that they know" group.
Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia
 
I thought this was interesting. View attachment 874461

I've seen a lot of that kind of thing for several different aircraft and a variety of different units. When they had time these things could make a big difference. Another major issue was just sanding and polishing the paint, which was worth ~10 mph for a lot of aircraft.
 
I've seen a lot of that kind of thing for several different aircraft and a variety of different units. When they had time these things could make a big difference. Another major issue was just sanding and polishing the paint, which was worth ~10 mph for a lot of aircraft.
Yes I read the finish on the early Gloster built Typhoon's was poor and the later ones were better finished and faster.
 
But we like it when you do that.
At least you claim that you are in the "you know that you don't know" group, although I think in many cases you are in the "don't know that you know" category.
It is the "don't know that they don't know" crowd that are infuriating, particularly when they frightfully deluded that they are in "know that they know" group.
Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

I couldn't agree more: And often it's a case of pot calling kettle black isn't it? ;)
 
The figures from the posted table are also real RAE figures. It resulted from an extremely comprehensive series of flight tests - first in France and then in England. The aircraft was tested at the RAE during May and June 1940, flown by three of the RAE's test pilots during the evaluation, and they flew a total of 35 hours of performance and handling tests. It would be difficult to find a more comprehensive set of test results for a given model of the 109.

Really? What are the pilot names, airframes and dates for 696 feet?

This is what ChatGPT comes up with, and bear in mind it sides with the 696 feet figure as being real...

My question:
what is RAE report B.A.1640 (sept 1940)? : Any pilot names or airframe numbers and dates for the turn radius tests?

Now we're on firm historical ground—because Royal Aircraft Establishment Report B.A.1640 (September 1940) does survive in referenced form, and we can separate what it actually is from later myths.

📄 What RAE Report B.A.1640 (Sept 1940) actually is

Full nature of the document

  • An RAE Farnborough technical report (later circulated via the Aeronautical Research Council)
  • Authors: Morgan and Morris (RAE aerodynamicists)


Aerodynamicists, in other words, off to a really bad start for real-world values...

  • Subject:
    Comparative turning performance of the Supermarine Spitfire and captured Messerschmitt Bf 109E
Key facts:
  • Dated September 1940
  • Not published until after the war (security classification)
  • Based on:
    • aerodynamic analysis
    • measured aircraft data (including a captured Bf 109E-3 tested at Farnborough)

🧠 What kind of "tests" were actually done?

This is the critical point:

👉 It was NOT a pilot dogfight test program

Instead, it was:

1. Analytical + performance-based study

  • Used:
    • wing loading
    • lift coefficients
    • air density (altitude)
  • Assumed:
    • maximum power
    • near-maximum lift (CL max)

2. Supported by measured aircraft data

  • Especially for:
    • the captured Bf 109E (extensively tested at RAE)

Me: You want to bet the 109E the only real data involved to extrapolate 696 feet on the Spit I ?



✈️ Turning radius results context

From this report lineage:
  • Spitfire ≈ ~696 ft
  • Bf 109E ≈ ~885 ft
These are:
  • calculated minimum radii

CAL-CU-LA-TED

Did you catch that?


CAL-CU-LA-TED


👨‍✈️ Were there pilots involved?

❗ Short answer: No named pilots are associated with the turning-radius results

Because:
  • The report is:
    • aerodynamic / engineering analysis
  • Not:
    • an operational RAF trial report
    • not a squadron evaluation

However:

  • Test flying at RAE did involve pilots (as always), but:
    • their identities are not recorded in connection with these specific results
    • because the results are derived, not anecdotal

DERIVED from flight data points... In other words...

CAL-CU-LA-TED


✈️ What about airframes?

✅ One airframe is clearly implied:

Captured Bf 109E-3

  • Tested at Farnborough
  • Provided high-quality performance data
Typical known captured aircraft:
  • Werknummer 1304 (often cited in literature)
  • though B.A.1640 itself (as far as surviving references show) does not list serials explicitly

❗ Spitfire airframes

  • No specific serials are given in surviving references to B.A.1640

THEREFORE 885 feet n B.A. 1640 matches my claim of 880 feet, because..... Real data....



  • Data likely based on:
    • standard Spitfire I performance curves
    • not a single instrumented aircraft

📅 Dates of the "tests"



Chat GPT puts "" on tests... Hmmm....
  • Report date: September 1940
  • Underlying work:
    • conducted earlier in 1940
    • during early Battle of Britain period


🔍 Why no pilots / serials appear (key insight)

Because B.A.1640 is:

👉 A theoretical-performance synthesis report, not a trial log

It combines:
  • wind tunnel / aerodynamic data
  • flight-test-derived coefficients
  • mathematical turning equations

MA-THE-MA-TI-CAL TUR-NING EQUA-TIONS

Let me ask you, Clostermann is an "outlier" to.......... WHAT exactly?




Rather than:
  • "Pilot X flew aircraft Y on date Z"



✅ Final answer (clear and precise)

What B.A.1640 is:

  • RAE Farnborough report (Sept 1940)
  • aerodynamic comparison of Spitfire vs Bf 109
  • based on calculations + measured data

Pilots:

  • ❌ No named pilots associated with turning-radius results
  • because it is not a pilot trial report

Airframes:

  • ✅ Captured Bf 109E-3 tested at RAE
  • ❌ No specific Spitfire serial identified in the report

The figures from the posted table are also real RAE figures. It resulted from an extremely comprehensive series of flight tests - first in France and then in England. The aircraft was tested at the RAE during May and June 1940, flown by three of the RAE's test pilots during the evaluation, and they flew a total of 35 hours of performance and handling tests. It would be difficult to find a more comprehensive set of test results for a given model of the 109.

ON THE 109E....

But I am not contesting the 886 feet figure on the 109E.... I am contesting the 696 feet figure on the Spitfire I...

Easy to lose the correct focus is it not?

I will post later on the 1050 foot figure and its sources.
 
The PEC curve given in the report is for the 109 only since, presumably, they would already have had a published PEC curve for the Spitfire at hand.


The figures from the posted table are also real RAE figures. It resulted from an extremely comprehensive series of flight tests - first in France and then in England. The aircraft was tested at the RAE during May and June 1940, flown by three of the RAE's test pilots during the evaluation, and they flew a total of 35 hours of performance and handling tests. It would be difficult to find a more comprehensive set of test results for a given model of the 109.

Right away this suggests the only real data is the 109's...

The flight tests were mined for data, and likely only the 109 turns were used as a real world basis, which is why 886 feet is plausible for the 109 while 696 for the Spitfire is not...

And this funny quote I can't resist:

Reports and memoranda no. 2361 September 1940: "Our aircrafts turned inside the Me-109 without difficulty when flown by determined pilots who were not afraid to pull their aircraft round hard in tight turns. In a surprising large number of cases, however, the Me-109 succeeded in keeping on the tail of the Spitfire or Hurricane during these turning tests, merely because our pilots would not tighten up the turn sufficiently from fear of stalling and spinning."

In other words, it's your fault if the math isn't working. Your fault!

And Clostermann and Johnny Johnson are outliers. Out-liers...

The science of aeronautics has spoken... Memoranda 2361 is the law...
 
Oh, you are one of those. I have read dozens of pilot's memoirs, letters, and after combat accounts of air combats from the MTO and Spitfire pilots (as well as Hurricane and Kittyhawk pilots) always noted that they could easily out-turn any Bf 109 let alone the Fw 190. I can quote some if you like though I have a feeling it won't matter. The only one who argues as you do was Pierre Clostermann, who is obviously an outlier.

Where is this infinite stock of Spitfire circles defeating FW-190As circles below 6-7 km?(The 109 did not turn quite as well to the right below 220 ias, so in low speed right circles I'd buy it, barely.) If typing is not your thing, you can just post a photo of those texts: Fair use you know...

After 30 years of looking for those, I can't wait to see those first hand accounts examples...

Remember guys, quote above: This is supposedly dozens.... Unleash the circles!
 
Really? What are the pilot names, airframes and dates for 696 feet?
Just like our previous discussion on roll performance where you tried to write off a report that blew away your arguments, pilot names are not published in this type of report. Pilot names are noted in the post flight reports themselves. The authors of this report worked through a stack of those post flight reports in order to conduct the analysis and results presented by them. There would be no point to mention the names of the pilots in the same way that you don't mention the name of a lab assistant in a scientific report unless he was a co-author. The report summarises the program scope, lists the number of pilots involved and the flight hours flown, which I already quoted - it is more than sufficient for this report. If you want the names of the pilots you would have to try and track down the post flight reports, assuming they still exist in an archive somewhere.

This is what ChatGPT comes up with, and bear in mind it sides with the 696 feet figure as being real...

My question:
what is RAE report B.A.1640 (sept 1940)? : Any pilot names or airframe numbers and dates for the turn radius tests?

Now we're on firm historical ground—because Royal Aircraft Establishment Report B.A.1640 (September 1940) does survive in referenced form, and we can separate what it actually is from later myths.

📄 What RAE Report B.A.1640 (Sept 1940) actually is

Full nature of the document

  • An RAE Farnborough technical report (later circulated via the Aeronautical Research Council)
  • Authors: Morgan and Morris (RAE aerodynamicists)
All correct.

Aerodynamicists, in other words, off to a really bad start for real-world values...
Who else do you think analyses the flight test data? Where do you think all the turn radii and other performance numbers that you quote on this forum came from? Do you think a pilot lands his plane, takes out a pen and paper and writes "I measured a turn radius of 678.9m"? Here's a hint: There is no instrument in a WW2 fighter that displays turn radius.

This is the critical point:

👉 It was NOT a pilot dogfight test program

Of course not, it is in the title of the report. The point was to obtain actual quantitative numbers, not to dogfight each other.

Instead, it was:

1. Analytical + performance-based study

Of course, it is in the title of the report. The point was to obtain actual quantitative numbers.

  • Used:
    • wing loading
    • lift coefficients
    • air density (altitude)
  • Assumed:
    • maximum power
    • near-maximum lift (CL max)

2. Supported by measured aircraft data

  • Especially for:
    • the captured Bf 109E (extensively tested at RAE)
All correct.

Me: You want to bet the 109E the only real data involved to extrapolate 696 feet on the Spit I ?
Nope, that is entirely made up by you. No one but you thinks that.

✈️ Turning radius results context

From this report lineage:
  • Spitfire ≈ ~696 ft
  • Bf 109E ≈ ~885 ft
These are:
  • calculated minimum radii
CAL-CU-LA-TED
Calculated from the flight test data. Once again: How do you think turn radii were measured? Here is a hint: GPS was invented long after WW2.

Did you catch that?

CAL-CU-LA-TED
From the flight test measurements!

👨‍✈️ Were there pilots involved?

❗ Short answer: No named pilots are associated with the turning-radius results

Because:
Already addressed.

  • The report is:
    • aerodynamic / engineering analysis
It is an analysis that was conducted from measured flight test data.

  • Not:
    • an operational RAF trial report
    • not a squadron evaluation
Those do not give quantitative information from which turn radii can be calculated. I'm sorry to make a personal comment, but the fact that you think those would have been more appropriate than a dedicated flight test report unfortunately demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge or experience in military aviation, flight testing and aeronautical engineering.

However:

  • Test flying at RAE did involve pilots (as always), but:
    • their identities are not recorded in connection with these specific results
    • because the results are derived, not anecdotal

DERIVED from flight data points... In other words...
Again, did you imagine you get these from some WW2 equivalent of a GPS ground track or a magical instrument in the cockpit that directly measures turn radius? The engineers need to take the measured ASI readings, load factor and/or bank angles and/or time taken to complete a given heading change/full 360 degree turn, barometric altitude and ambient temperature. Along with that, they need predetermined instrument calibration data like the PEC information previously discussed and atmospheric charts and equations to determine the local density ratio and speed of sound. They then calculate the TAS from those results, apply kinematic relations to the speed and measured turn rate and/or bank angle and from there calculate the turn radius. It was the ONLY way to determine turn radius prior to the availability of inertial and GPS navigation systems. The equations still hold today, but we are lucky that there are more modern instrumentation available that gives you some of the information instantaneously that needed detailed analysis in the WW2 era. To be honest, even with GPS you have to correct for wind drift, so in most cases you still end up using the same equations today.

CAL-CU-LA-TED
From measured flight test data. There is no magic alternative.

✈️ What about airframes?

✅ One airframe is clearly implied:

Captured Bf 109E-3

  • Tested at Farnborough
  • Provided high-quality performance data
Typical known captured aircraft:
  • Werknummer 1304 (often cited in literature)
  • though B.A.1640 itself (as far as surviving references show) does not list serials explicitly
It was Bf 109E-3 Werknummer 1304 and its history and how it ended up in this series of tests was well documented elsewhere. There was only one aircraft involved. BA 1640 doesn't list the serial explicitly (once again, it would have been in the post flight reports from which the data was compiled), but it described the history of the test aircraft well enough that there can be no doubt which aircraft was involved.

MA-THE-MA-TI-CAL TUR-NING EQUA-TIONS
Versus what alternative? Explain how you think they could get turn radius without those equations.

Unfortunately, your entire post, which had to rely on ChatGPT because you have no experience in this field yourself, just confirms your misunderstanding of very basic aeronautical concepts, including the fact that quantitative, numerical data can only be obtained from formal flight testing like this; that a detailed analysis of the results is required to determine the performance numbers that you love to quote on this forum; and that you need professional test personnel (pilots AND engineers) to do all of that. This particular report is extremely thorough and provides excellent datapoints for comparison. You cannot just write it off because you don't like its results.
 

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