- Thread starter
- #101
Spitfire XIV vs Bf-109 K-4 vs La-7 vs Yak-3
- Thread starter Soren
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drgondog
Major
I am delighted but mystified regarding why you continue to make my point?
I appears that Gene agrees my interpretation of the report including 'no twist' at the tips.. I pointed that out and suggested to you that Gene may have missed that in the report - you said you would trust him more than me - but it appears he agreed my point.
Summary - Gene superbly demonstrated that he can read and comprehend - no suprise.
And I submit the quote from you that started all this
"However in the case of the 190 you will note that the wing twist was applied to such a degree as to provide elliptical lift distribution under G's (which btw is the reason for the violent departure), it was purposely done so to achieve the maximum 'e' factor and therefore L/D ratio in turns. Now ofcourse you wont see that on Lednicer's comparison as his simulation was done under 1 G, something you seem unable to grasp."
Maybe I did 'grasp' what Lednicer had to say - so did Gene.. but you? Not so much.. along with 'suction' versus drag.. but you know a lot about aero.
Now is a good time to shut this one down - I really am tired of picking on you.
Code:
DerAdlerIstGelandet
Interesting little side note. A lot of people say that the problem with the 109 was because of its narrow track. pbfoot who has a 109E and a Spitfire readily available to him actualley went and measured them and the Spitfire's track was actually a bit narrower.Well, now that is really interesting to hear.
Regards
Kruska
At the museum he works at they have aflying Bf 109E as well as a Spitfire. You should check out his thread, he has many pics of them both.
- Thread starter
- #105
LoL ! Wiggle wiggle! Trying to dodge the subject at hand are we Bill ??
Crumpp Lednicer agree that the the Fw-190 achieved elliptical lift distribution in turns, just like I tried to explain to you, and both explaining how!
Quote from Gene:
Aeroelasticity is simply a byproduct of flying and all aircraft experience it. The NACA 23000 series of airfoils have a harsh stall with no washout due to the fact they produce elliptical lift along the entire airfoil. That means with no washout the entire wing stalls at once. This is why the FW-190's wing is twisted to prevent it.
The wing was left straight at the ends to gain the benefits of elliptical lift production at the tips making the tips more efficient and reducing induced drag production.
When aeroelasticity removes this twist then the FW-190 exhibits a harsh stall.
And by Lednicer
A wartime Focke Wulf report (Ref. 14) indicates that at higher loading conditions (i.e. when pulling more gs) elastic deformation of the Fw 190 out wing shifts the load distribution outboard. This would cause even more of the wing to reach its stalling lift coefficient simultaneous. Combined with the sharp stalling features of NACA 230xx airfoils, this would produce the harsh stall found in by Capt. Brown. A gentle stall would be evidenced by a more gradual progression of the 2D stall spanwise.
So who was it that was having problems with reading comprehension again Bill ??
- Thread starter
- #106
Is it because I have to simplify it for you Bill, is that it ???! Ok sure;
The Fw-190's wing was twisted 2 degree's but left straight at the ends so that under G's the twist was removed, thus creating elliptical lift distribution over the wing. And as we both seem to know ellipitical lift distribution is sought after because it offers the best 'e' value (Which is used to acquire the Cdi).
The Fw-190's wing was twisted 2 degree's but left straight at the ends so that under G's the twist was removed, thus creating elliptical lift distribution over the wing. And as we both seem to know ellipitical lift distribution is sought after because it offers the best 'e' value (Which is used to acquire the Cdi).
drgondog
Major
I really am amused that you keep using my reference above in the Lednicer Report to rebut my rebuttal to this dopey statement from you - which started all this latest 'stuff'
Soren blurts - "However in the case of the 190 you will note that the wing twist was applied to such a degree as to provide elliptical lift distribution under G's (which btw is the reason for the violent departure), it was purposely done so to achieve the maximum 'e' factor and therefore L/D ratio in turns. Now ofcourse you wont see that on Lednicer's comparison as his simulation was done under 1 G, something you seem unable to grasp."
So, Lednicer (and I say) aeroelastic bending caused the outboard shift in lift distribution, combined with no twist in outer region of wing, which in turn resulted in the outboard chunk of the wing reaching critical stall at the same time..
and you say "wing twist was provided to such a degree as to provide elliptical lift distribution under G's (which btw is the reason for the violent departure, it was purposely done so as to achieve maximum 'e' factor and therfore L/D ratio in turns.. blah, blah, blah
This is a multiple choice test - you have a 50/50 shot.
Which explanation coincides with Gene/Lednicer and me - versus you?
To Soren and Bill:
Not to try and be a moderator, but couldn't you at least ignore each other? These mud throwing from both sides gets really annoying. Or maybe start your own thread, so you can bash each other all day without bothering others with it.
Not to try and be a moderator, but couldn't you at least ignore each other? These mud throwing from both sides gets really annoying. Or maybe start your own thread, so you can bash each other all day without bothering others with it.
drgondog
Major
You are right.. it is consuming too much time going in circles..
Then try to ignore him, it's the only way to stop this fruitless battling.
Will not happen. 8)
I say all of us members take a vote, whoever gets the least votes (Soren or Bill) gets voted off this forum forever.
I am joking. (kinda like our own Survivor)
I just proposed a special thread for them in the "suggestions" forum
Ah, great minds think alike
drgondog
Major
Ah, great minds think alike
Or witless ones? Just kidding - to you both.
I will get you Bill.......................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (evil laugh again if your wondering)
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- #120
