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A boundary layer separator wasn't possible, since the "roof" of the radiator housing climbed up immediately after the intake lip, so that the top of the radiator matrix was just under the top skin of the wing's upper surface (this was the reason for erks being told to keep off the starboard wing.) I don't have the measurements, but the face of the radiator, in area, was roughly double that of the mouth of the housing, and the air expanded in four directions.Spitfire was found lacking two things: boundary layer separator (or tunel, playing the same role?) for the radiator(s), while the inner shape of the radiator was ill suited to fully harvest the Meredith effect. Maybe the (under) wing placement was restricting the convenient radiator height, in order to sufficiently slow the air flow after it enters the radiator casing? Also, the radiator casing was restricted in possible length, since it was located between U/C leg space (when retracted) and flap - not allowing to the Meredith effect to happen at a desirable level..
The exit flap was only opened when the climbing temperature of the coolant required it; in the IX, it was fully automatic, though the pilot could override it if he needed to.contrary to the radiator's exit flap of the P-51, that was progressively adjustable, the exit flap from the Spit (IX is mentioned in the article) have had two positions: fully open and partially closed, again messing with the M. effect. P-51s
Guess riacrato was thinkering of radiator's smaller area, rather than of whole plane.
Further on Spitfire: the Mk.III is stated as being equipped with 'wheel well flap', presumable a wheel well cover? However, the 'flap' is not easy to spot on the photos. Wonder if someone has some details about it?
But does that really mean no boundary layer seperation is possible? Isn't the "roof" of the P-51 radiator also higher than the intake lip? Even if not, I don't see how this fact which is also true for the 109 and probably a lot of '30s aircraft designs eliminates the possility of having a "scoop" instead of a simpler opening for the intake. I'd rather think this simply wasn't a common practice in the thirties and not seen as a worthwhile cleanup later. Maybe the redesign and the added complexity simply wasn't worth the effort. I seem to recall even for the P-51 it took some time until they figured out the best dimensions and "offset" for the boundary layer seperator.A boundary layer separator wasn't possible, since the "roof" of the radiator housing climbed up immediately after the intake lip, so that the top of the radiator matrix was just under the top skin of the wing's upper surface (this was the reason for erks being told to keep off the starboard wing.) I don't have the measurements, but the face of the radiator, in area, was roughly double that of the mouth of the housing, and the air expanded in four directions.
Exactly. But does that really mean no boundary layer seperation is possible? Isn't the "roof" of the P-51 radiator also higher than the intake lip? Even if not, I don't see how this fact which is also true for the 109 and probably a lot of '30s aircraft designs eliminates the possility of having a "scoop" instead of a simpler opening for the intake. I'd rather think this simply wasn't a common practice in the thirties and not seen as a worthwhile cleanup later. Maybe the redesign and the added complexity simply wasn't worth the effort. I seem to recall even for the P-51 it took some time until they figured out the best dimensions and "offset" for the boundary layer seperator.
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The Me 109F's systems was every bit as sophisticated as the excellent P-51 system; it also had a boundary layer bypass. Of course being much smaller its dimensions were far less optimal. Oddly the Me 109G gave up on the boundary layer system...
You have figures, of course?The Spitfire had a fairly messy underside which caused considerable drag, .
.tidying up this area surely would have paid dividentds
.Its so called Meredith radiator system was not particularly unique nor more effective than others despit the myths sorounding it; everyone including Messerchmitt, Curtiss and the French fighters seemed to have the technology
It would be nice if you did everyone the courtesy of carrying out some research, before pontificating on a subject you obviously know little about; the Spitfire VII was the first service airframe to have a retractable tailwheel, though it was trialled first on the Mk.III. Also your "little produced" VIII ran to 1650 airframes, in just two years, more than the Mk.I (1530,) Mk.II (920,) Va (1367,) Vc (635,) VI (100,) VII (140,) XII (100,) XIV (957,) XVI (1054,) in fact only the Vb IX were built in greater numbers. Even the whole lot of Merlin-powered Seafires, I, II, III only totalled 1792.Retractable tailwheels came in with the Spitifre Mk VIII but this airframe was little produced.
You have figures, of course?
you mean we'd have won the Battle of Britain by an even bigger margin?
Who claimed that it was unique? And, if you check, the Meredith effect is air entering an intake, then expanding, which is what happened in the Spitfire radiator(s,) so let's have a bit less of this "so-called," please.
Like the 109 190? And the ejector/muzzle openings were sealed shut, until the pilot opened fire.I agree, figures would be interesting, but even without figures it is clearcut that semi-faired undercarriage, a large boxy radiator or lots of casing ejector openings is bad from the drag point of view. Most aircraft in the 1930s looked like it, but most did move away from that and started using more streamlined radiators and fully faired undercarriage.
125 fewer, in fact - 530 to 655, achieved by 19 Squadrons against 33 Hurricane Squadrons. And if you add aircrew into your "absolute numbers," the Germans lost a lot more, so much that at least one German general said that it was their single most telling defeat.British and German losses in the Battle of Britain were in fact very similar in absolute numbers, and the Spitfire in any case contributed much less to that than the numerous Hurricane.
Spitfire I flew at 362mph, and the XIV at 442, an increase of 80mph (128kph) or 22%, with an increase of 13000' in the service ceiling as well.The Spitfire's major problem during development was high drag, that actually got worse as this was being compensated by more powerful engines (which ironically added even more drag with the new systems added like bigger radiators and intercoolers) and it was increasingly difficult to increase it's performance. Cleaning up the design a bit would have easily gained 30 and perhaps as much as 40 km/h.
Or, in other words, try to work out some way to fiddle the figures to get the result you want; play your games on your own.
You have figures, of course?
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you mean we'd have won the Battle of Britain by an even bigger margin?
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Who claimed that it was unique? And, if you check, the Meredith effect is air entering an intake, then expanding, which is what happened in the Spitfire radiator(s,) so let's have a bit less of this "so-called," please.
It would be nice if you did everyone the courtesy of carrying out some research, before pontificating on a subject you obviously know little about; the Spitfire VII was the first service airframe to have a retractable tailwheel, though it was trialled first on the Mk.III. Also your "little produced" VIII ran to 1650 airframes, in just two years, more than the Mk.I (1530,) Mk.II (920,) Va (1367,) Vc (635,) VI (100,) VII (140,) XII (100,) XIV (957,) XVI (1054,) in fact only the Vb IX were built in greater numbers. Even the whole lot of Merlin-powered Seafires, I, II, III only totalled 1792.
Like the 109 190? And the ejector/muzzle openings were sealed shut, until the pilot opened fire.
125 fewer, in fact - 530 to 655, achieved by 19 Squadrons against 33 Hurricane Squadrons. And if you add aircrew into your "absolute numbers," the Germans lost a lot more, so much that at least one German general said that it was their single most telling defeat.
Spitfire I flew at 362mph, and the XIV at 442, an increase of 80mph (128kph) or 22%, with an increase of 13000' in the service ceiling as well.
1/. My "protestations" are corrections to your fabrications.Let me answer your 'protestations' one by one..
Dear Lord, is there no end to your manipulation of history? So, now, we're to believe that the Battle was deliberately lost, and hundreds of elite German aircrew thrown away on a whim? Truly that means that the German hierarchy were even more incompetent than we first thought. Oh, and the Spitfire persuaded thousands of people, as far apart as Japan, South Africa, America and Argentina, to raise £5,000 for each aircraft (when the average weekly wage, in the U.K., was £1.5) to a total of over 1400 aircraft, so your "iconic" is a compliment, not an insult.One.
The battle of Britain wasn't won by the "iconic" Spitfire which in itself would have need the numbers of the Hurricane anyway, it was "thrown"
What Meredith wrote, in fact, was the germ of the idea for jet propulsion (and I have a copy of his letter, headed, "Invention relating to jet propulsion of aircraft," sent to the Air Ministry in 1935, taken from our National Archives, if you insist on arguing the point.)Two
"Meredith" invented nothing. Hence the term "So called Meredith effect". All he did was write an non-academic explanatory paper on heat recovery that became popular in the UK and perhaps US. The idea was reasonably known and started to make sense with the appearance of pressurised cooling loops which raised coolant temperature enough so as to allow smaller radiators.
But you didn't answer it, you simply made a rude comment about it. We have never-ending references to the "draggy" radiators, and I'm simply asking where are these references to be found? I've been through dozens of test reports, on the Spitfire (and other aircraft,) in our archives, and have never yet found one condemning the radiators; all I ask is where are these reports to be found? I have regular access to our National Archives, and should be able to find them, if you would just indicate where to look.Three.
Sorry for answering the question "what was good and what was bad" re Spitfire aerodynamics. A picture is worth a thousand words. Any Google image search of "Spitfire underside" versus "P-51 underside" will show how messy the Spitfire was in comparison.
Out of 20,334 Spitfires (do stop massaging figures, there's a good boy) and 2,408 Seafires, 4,255 Spitfires and 786 Seafires had retractable tailwheels, which is a little over 22%, so not as insignificant as you like to make out.The retractable tail wheel versions (mainly Mk VII,VIII,XIV) were little produced in terms of overall numbers of 25000 spitfires. I stand by that statement.
Do show me where the three coolers are, under the Spitfire; in all my years, crawling under them, I've only ever found two. Your "belief" in non-flush rivets is another fabrication; the only area of domed rivets was on the fuselage, aft of the cockpit, and then only until June 1943. Allow me to tell you a little story, well-known among those who do bother to carry out research:-On the other hand all P-51 and Fw 190, P-47 and P-40 had retractable tail wheels as did all Me 109F, some Me 109G, Most Me 109K. Gun bulges, partially uncovered wheels, no less than 3 separate coolers, various antenna, non flush rivets(I believe) all marred the Spitfire underside.
.Look at the underside of the Spitfire to reveal what is likely 10-20 mph of speed losses due to the superior construction values of the P-51 and more modern aircraft
Yet another complete fabrication; I have a copy of the complete ledger of the modifications, carried out to the Spitfire and Seafire ( there were more than 2900,) which include production-shattering items like, ""To introduce adhesive tape for electrical cables," and "To secure egine data plate with bolts and nuts in place or rivets." Every single change had to go before, and be approved by, the Local Technical Committee (there was a war on, remember,) so stop talking nonsense, and learn.Of course these things were likely known but production demands meant what appear to be trivial changes were not be made
Do me the courtesy of reading the statement, to which I was responding, before indulging in your latest bout of sarcasm.Well that's grand, and how does that view fit into the question of the Spitfire's drag exactly? I fail to see the relevance.
It would be nice if you didn't blindly follow your pro-German mate:-The Spitfire I achieved 282 mph with about 880 HP, the Spitfire XIV achieved about 358 mph with 1840 HP at SL ('paper' figures, invidual planes may have flew faster or slower)
Which is a real (if not intended) compliment to Mitchell, because the 1935 airframe proved to be so adaptable, right through to 1950, (and, of course, the Germans never altered, or improved, their engines during the whole war.)Yes, it improved very well, chiefly because they managed to put larger, heavier and more powerful engines to it.
Well let's see the numbers.
The Spitfire I achieved 282 mph with about 880 HP, the Spitfire XIV achieved about 358 mph with 1840 HP at SL ('paper' figures, invidual planes may have flew faster or slower)
Since power requirement for speed increases on the cube, to drive a 282 mph plane to 358 mph you need (352/282)@3 = 1.94 the times of power, if all things are similar. That is 1.94*880 HP, or about 1710 HP, the amount of power a Spitfire I airframe would require to go as fast as the real life Mark XIV. As we can see by the XIV the increase in drag was equivalent to about 130 HP. BTW that 1710 HP is almost precisely what the Merlin 66 Spits had, so but those were only good for about 330 mph at SL.
From that it follows that the drag increase during the development of the Spitfire was equivalent to about 25-30 mph speed loss. That's hardly insignificant.
Do me the courtesy of reading the statement, to which I was responding, before indulging in your latest bout of sarcasm.
My apologies if I was a little (!!!) short, earlier, but I'm growing tired of what you call "Spitfire bashers," who never produce anything to back up their "findings," or massage the available figures to suit themselves. If, during my years of research, I'd found anything, at all, condemning the radiators, I would say so, since truth is more important than Jingoism (of whatever nation.) Always, in the back of mind, there hovers the saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."We may disagree on the Whirlwind but the procedure I outlined actually works out rather well for the Spitfire.
I had done this exercise before and knew how it came out. Spitfire bashers are welcome to poke holes at it ( I am sure there are a few flaws) but I think it is better than "I think, it must have" and so on without even an attempt to show how the "extra" drag affects things.
Very definitely, since I was responding to your comment "and the Spitfire in any case contributed much less to that than the numerous Hurricane," not something written by our Australian-based pro-German, so try again.Yes I have read it. Siegfried said the Spitfire's underside could use a bit of cleanup and that would be increasingly useful in the long term, to which you replied with a sarcastic and nationalistic fit about how much greater RAF glory (as you perceive the events) would have been in 1940 then.
At this point I dared to point out that you are not making any sense. Did I miss something perhaps?