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For the Americans you had 3 companies designing major aircraft piston engines, Packard pretty much built Merlin's under licence.
Packard's chief aircraft engine designer had died in 1931 (?) in an an aircraft crash. The PT boat engine was derived from the larger of the old V-12 aircraft engines (and was of 2500 cu in ).
The US did have slew of other engine makers/designers but lets face it. Air Cooled Motors (Franklin), Continental, Jacobs, Lycoming, Kinner, Fairchild (Ranger), and a few others never developed an engine that saw use in a 1st line combat aircraft. Designing 50-350hp engines that ran on low grade fuel was hard to transition to over 1000hp engines running on 100 octane and up.
Many other countries also had engine makers that built light engines. England had De Havilland and Blackburn making inline fours and sixes for instance.
But for piston engines that counted in combat aircraft the numbers of design teams were pretty much as given.
Some of the light engine makers did get development contracts for Jet engines as most of the big companies were stretched to the max working on piston engines.
For the US some weird notion of secrecy prevented Jet engines being developed at major engine companies.
That said, I don't think the Soviets were slacking on engine development, I just think they could have, if they'd really felt the need, put more into engine development vs. manufacture or design of fighters, or bombers, or trucks or tanks or small arms or submarines or whatever. I don't think they felt the deficiencies of the Klimov etc. engines as sorely as it may appear they should have to some.
For a company (mostly) in a neutral country and not directly involved in the war effort, Hispano-Suiza was for sure one of the more important firms in terms of original designs for WW2.
Well I'm certainly not suggesting that if they could have doubled horsepower in 1942 they wouldn't have done so. What I am saying is the following:
If you are arguing that they were at the absolute maximum investment they could have made in engine development in terms of money, logistical resources, people, infrastructure, political cover and so on, then I think you are mistaken.
- Every nation decided how much money to allocate in their defense budget
- Some went to R&D, some to production, some training, some to logistics
- Of course the Soviets were working on better aircraft designs, better engines, things like rockets and so on.
- But I suspect the Soviets probably put a bit more emphasis on production than on R&D, across the board.
- They did support and push the design efforts, but by the time their factories were working, they got what they needed and didn't ramp it up to another level. This is what I mean by 'just enough'.
On the subject of Russian/Soviet engines.
For the US some weird notion of secrecy prevented Jet engines being developed at major engine companies.
You keep missing the point. The Soviets had engines of several hundred more horsepower than the M-105 in development in 1938-1940. The aircraft designers were planning on using these engines. The Soviet planners had already ordered these engines into production before the Germans attacked. The production orders for the engines were premature and the engines were on no way ready for service use (even by Soviet standards). This meant that the production aircraft of that generation of Russian aircraft had to make do with the lower powered M-105 series engines. In order to maintain the desired performance (or at least close to it) something/s had to be sacrificed and one of the things sacrificed was armament.
The Lagg was designed to use a 23mm gun. When it failed in testing the two designers were sent to prison and later shot. The 20mm ShVAK cannon was the fall back cannon (it entered service in 1936). I don't what was intended for the Yak prototype but it flew with one 20mm gun and four 7.62 guns, the 2nd prototype took out two of the machine guns to correct a CG problem. The Soviets showed every indication of wanting to use more or bigger guns in the design stage (or in later variants) than the majority of their production fighters carried.
The NS-37mm gun in the Yak-9T weighed about 4 times as much as the 20mm ShVAK.
They were caught between what they needed and what they wanted or what they desired to counter any future German improvements. This was always a problem with accepting weapons that just good enough.
The Russians were also constrained by manufacturing capability. Engineers were also a bit thin. Russian light tanks were pretty much a disaster but since they didn't have enough T-34s they built thousands of crappy light tanks just to make up numbers until the situation got better and they could get the factories to make something else (SU-76 SP guns).
The Soviets could be quite ruthless when it came to producing weapons and evaluating effectiveness but often this ruthlessness was because there was no "good" answer, but only a choice between bad and even worse. They often could not wait for the weapons/planes they wanted and had to settle for what they could make even knowing that due to performance shortfalls they are going to take large losses.
I am not trying to blame the Russians here,
The US was 'saved' by the Allison company finding new ways to make better and stronger parts for the Allison that allowed it to survive the extra power it could make using 100/130 fuel.
The US trying to rely on the US Army/Continental IV-1430 doesn't bear thinking about (even in 1943/44 it couldn't make the power claimed for it in 1941)
I am not sure how you figure that one.
Yes there were Hispano factories in Spain (Neutral?) but there were also factories in France (and the gun factory in England) that Hispano had interests in.
Once France surrendered Hispano's influence on designs of either engines or guns stopped for the duration of the war. Hispano had been heavily involved with France's war effort.
The Hispano V-12 engine was slamming into a wall in 1940 and needed considerable modification to even stay remotely competitive.
Well I'm certainly not suggesting that if they could have doubled horsepower in 1942 they wouldn't have done so. What I am saying is the following:
If you are arguing that they were at the absolute maximum investment they could have made in engine development in terms of money, logistical resources, people, infrastructure, political cover and so on, then I think you are mistaken.
- Every nation decided how much money to allocate in their defense budget
- Some went to R&D, some to production, some training, some to logistics
- Of course the Soviets were working on better aircraft designs, better engines, things like rockets and so on.
- But I suspect the Soviets probably put a bit more emphasis on production than on R&D, across the board.
- They did support and push the design efforts, but by the time their factories were working, they got what they needed and didn't ramp it up to another level. This is what I mean by 'just enough'.
The story of aircraft designs all over the world is one of new engines not panning out. Every country (even England) had promising aircraft designs which never went anywhere because engines didn't pan out. Every country had promising engine designs they struggled with. Allison ultimately made 'adequate' engines for American needs, and they were probably better overall than most of the M-105 series, but they were hardly spectacular compared to say a Rolls Royce Merlin or DB.601 and they didn't produce spectacular power let alone high altitude performance (unless you connected them to a G.E. turbo).
For that matter you might want to look at radio manufacturing as almost as important as guns or superchargers. Because in the early war it wasn't just the Japanese who had to rely on hand signals. Getting to full transmitter / receiver rigs in each fighter took a while for the Soviet war machine. How much does a full radio set improve the combat effectiveness of that same squadron of Yak-1Bs?
The Soviet Klimov M-100 series was itself derived from the famous and highly influential Hispano-Suiza 12Y, around which the whole Klimov "Design Bureau" was organized, though admittedly they took them farther than Packard did the RR Merlin.
The P40Q should have been built.
Even if it was only for the Bubble Canopy helping SA.
A second Supercharger on the Allison would have opened up its flight envelop and still keep its low altitude performance.
Not using the P63 was also short sighted.
Would have been our best ground attack and fighter.
Able to fight its was out of the target area.
Very cool post and I agree with most of that but just to quibble a bit about the p40q, yes it was slower straight and level than the p51 but was still fast(well over 400) and had an astounding rate of climb over 4000 fpm although I can't remember exactly right now. To me, if I can give up 20 mph but gain an aditional 1000 to 1500 fpm climb that seems worthwhile.Hello Schweik,
I believe you are underestimating the sheer amount of effort required to develop an aircraft engine.
Consider the case of the Packard Merlin. They STARTED with a proven design with proven performance which the Soviets did not have. They had all the drawings supplied to them by Rolls Royce and working examples of the Merlin XX and it still took them about a year to get things straight. Remember that this was before the days of computers, calculators and photocopying.
I am very surprised you are saying this considering our recent discussion about the P-40K. The Allison had no trouble making the power and had excellent durability and flexibility. It just didn't have the supercharger for really good altitude performance. If you look at what these engines are capable of when run to their limits, you will find that the Allison in very high power applications seems to be superior in durability to the Merlin.
Whether airborne communications helps depends a lot on whether the pilots are trained to fight as a team. It also helps when someone beyond visual range has information which significantly affects the tactical situation.
Imagine a radio message coming in that says: "Stop chasing the Torpedo Planes! There is an incoming raid at high altitude that is 20 miles out."
How do you coordinate with your wingman or the rest of your squadron in the middle of a dogfight?
You need to remember that Packard was not taking the Merlin as a baseline and manufacturing new models of engines. They were adapting existing engine designs and changes had to be shared and approved by Rolls Royce. THAT was the contract. They did make some adaptations but that was mostly in terms of measuring standards (Decimal versus Fractions of an inch). Packard wasn't even allowed to use SAE thread standards and had to stick with Whitworth threads and ended up having to make their own screws and bolts in house because they could not buy them on this side of the pond.
Hello Dan Fahey,
The P-40Q was better than earlier P-40s but it still didn't have what was wanted and that was Speed.
It was still about 25-30 MPH slower than the P-51 that was already in production.
The P-63 didn't have a lot of range and still wasn't particularly fast by late war standards.
Is there any reason to believe that the P-63 was superior to a P-47 for ground attack?
What was its ability to carry ordnance?
- Ivan.
Hello Schweik,
I believe you are underestimating the sheer amount of effort required to develop an aircraft engine.
Consider the case of the Packard Merlin. They STARTED with a proven design with proven performance which the Soviets did not have. They had all the drawings supplied to them by Rolls Royce and working examples of the Merlin XX and it still took them about a year to get things straight. Remember that this was before the days of computers, calculators and photocopying.
I am very surprised you are saying this considering our recent discussion about the P-40K. The Allison had no trouble making the power and had excellent durability and flexibility. It just didn't have the supercharger for really good altitude performance. If you look at what these engines are capable of when run to their limits, you will find that the Allison in very high power applications seems to be superior in durability to the Merlin.
Whether airborne communications helps depends a lot on whether the pilots are trained to fight as a team. It also helps when someone beyond visual range has information which significantly affects the tactical situation.
Imagine a radio message coming in that says: "Stop chasing the Torpedo Planes! There is an incoming raid at high altitude that is 20 miles out."
How do you coordinate with your wingman or the rest of your squadron in the middle of a dogfight?
You need to remember that Packard was not taking the Merlin as a baseline and manufacturing new models of engines. They were adapting existing engine designs and changes had to be shared and approved by Rolls Royce. THAT was the contract. They did make some adaptations but that was mostly in terms of measuring standards (Decimal versus Fractions of an inch). Packard wasn't even allowed to use SAE thread standards and had to stick with Whitworth threads and ended up having to make their own screws and bolts in house because they could not buy them on this side of the pond.
Hello Dan Fahey,
The P-40Q was better than earlier P-40s but it still didn't have what was wanted and that was Speed.
It was still about 25-30 MPH slower than the P-51 that was already in production.
.
Hello Schweik,
- Ivan.
You didn't waste your time. I found it fascinating.So nothing on the Italian TO&E? Did I waste my time transcribing all that?