Stuka With Retractable Landing Gear: What If?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by stug3, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

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    Would it need an entirely new wing?
    Would it retain its trademark gull wing?
    What kind of performance with less drag?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    See Ju187.
     
  3. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    There were several WWII era dive bombers with retractable landing gear. None could match Ju-87D overall performance for payload and weapons accuracy. I cannot help but wonder if fixed landing gear contributed to Ju-87Ds outstanding accuracy.
     
  4. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Not even the reliably accurate Val? It was easily the most accurate Naval dive bomber of the war.
     
  5. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Val dive bomber could probably match Ju-87D accuracy but it routinely carried only 1/4th the payload (250kg rather then 1,000kg). That's a huge difference in capability.
     
  6. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Historical IJN D4Y.
    500kg bomb bay.
    2 x 7.7mm forward firing machineguns.
    1,400hp Aichi Atsuta V12 engine. Essentially a modified DB601 clone.
    342mph max speed.

    D4Y was a nice aircraft but I would make it a bit larger. Might not fit on a CV elevator but that's not a problem for land based German dive bomber.

    Hypothetical D4Y writ large.
    1,000kg bomb bay. Matches Ju-87D but bomb is carried internally to improve speed and range.
    3cm Mk103 high velocity hub cannon.
    DB603 or Jumo213 engine. 2,000hp Jumo222A engine would be better still.
    Optimum performance @ 3,000 meters.
    ~350mph max speed.
    Armor protection at least as good as Ju-87D.
    Internal fuel capacity adequate for combat radius of 250 miles with 1,000kg bomb. Can be extended further with drop tanks under wings.
    Rear firing remote control barbettes similar to Me-210.
     
  7. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Getting back on track and away from the bomb load, which wasn't the question, then 1) Yes. 2) Probably not and 3) probably no significant change.
     
  8. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

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    #8 stug3, Jun 12, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
    Interesting that the Val also has fixed LG which supports your theory.
     
  9. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

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    No one even mentions the major factor when it comes to hitting the target. Pilot skill .
     
  10. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

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    Junkers Ju 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The project was cancelled by the Reich Air Ministry in autumn 1943 because the aircraft's projected performance, when fully loaded, was estimated to be no better than the latest Ju 87 D variant (estimated maximum speed: 248 mph (399 km/h)).

    Maybe a different wing would be needed to reduce drag, but still carry an adequate load.

    Ju187
    [​IMG]
     
  11. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    does anyone have a cut away of the wing? to put a well for the wheel to retract could cause problems with routing other components. or the wing might need to be made thicker. how does what you gain in the reduction of drag compare to the weight added with the addition of hydraulics and retractable gear? and more importantly what do you expect to gain? the plane was a slower ac by design....what will gaining 10 to 25 mph do for the mission of the plane?
     
  12. altsym

    altsym Member

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  13. meatloaf109

    meatloaf109 Well-Known Member

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    My answer is; sure, why not. But it probably would have still been an easy target for modern fighters.
     
  14. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

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    speed=ability to avoid enemy fire, but meatloaf is probably right.
     
  15. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

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  16. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    You have to have a wing cross-section that would allow the gear to retract. Even creating a faired gear housing, like on the Il-2, introduced a certain amount of drag...so you'd probably end up creating a whole new airframe.

    Your best bet is to stick with what works, and create a safe environment for it to operate in by holding air supremacy...
     
  17. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    As a bit of a reality check a Fairey Fulmar had a wing 1 sq ft smaller than a Ju-87, that is ONE not ten or even two. With a 1300 hp engine it could do 272mph at 7250ft CLEAN. once you hang 1 to 5 bombs underneath the speed goes down hill in a hurry.

    Retractable gear would help range and speed a bit but since the Ju-87 rarely operated at great distances and the increase in speed is still pathetic when compared to a 1942 or later fighter it sort of gets to the why bother point.
     
  18. stug3

    stug3 Active Member

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    Talk about drag...

    agent crew cabin
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    torpedo 300 litre drop tanks
    [​IMG]


    Universal wing mounted Schloss ejector rack with WB 81B gun pod
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Balsa

    Balsa New Member

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    #19 Balsa, Jun 13, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
    The corsair has retractable gear and it's gull winged so there's no technical reason RG could not have been added, but there are many associated problems doing this by modification to an existing design. For one thing, the main fuel tanks of the JU-87 are on the inboard sides of the inverted gull wing. Second and most significant was the JU-87 use the Junkers double wing configuration; the flying ailerons and flaps were built in drag, and no amount of sleeking up the undercarriage was going to avail much unless those were altered.

    Even though major changes would have been needed, the Germans could have taken lessons from both the Japanese and the Russians in making alterations to the JU-87. The ailerons and flaps could have been incorporated as in a conventional aircraft, a significant reduction in bomb loading would have really helped range when it could have been used, and the RG added to these alterations should have boosted the performance significantly.
     
  20. Tante Ju

    Tante Ju Banned

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    Actually fixed landing gears were preferable for a dive bomber - they helped creating drag, and as odd as it seems, this is good for a dive bomber. It can maintain and limit speed in dives, increasing accuracy, and can have a very strong wing to sustain heavy loads and pull-outs from vertical dives.

    And as SR noted, 400 or 450 km/h is pretty irrelevant when fighters can do 600 anyway AND when your typical bomber will cruise at 200-250 in practice... didnt B-17s cruise at about 180 mph in formation? It just does not make any difference.
     
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