red admiral
Senior Airman
- 479
- Mar 24, 2005
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A turbosupercharger is essentially a two stage blower with the second stage driven by exhaust fumes.
In engineering a turbocharger is a layman introduced term that appeared somewhere along the way for what is just a supercharger. That said, so is "turbosupercharger" and you are quite correct. As a layman's term it doesn't really describe any particular piece of engineering, it just became a popular term for a particular supercharger setup, like turbocharger did. I appreciate what the common terminology means in the US and thankyou for the input. It makes some American aero publications I've been reading make more sense (about the D-motor for instance).This isn't necesarily ture. The term turbosupercharger was used simply to refer what is now usualy called just a turbocharger. Turbo-supercharging may refer just to the use of a turbosupercharger, but since in operational WWII US context there was always an "engine supercharger" any turbocharging would have a mechaicaly driven supercharger stage as well.
Let's see. Mercedes Benz AG archives, Stuttgart (second hand, cited by the comprehensive DB605 homepage of an enthusiast).Do you have any source for the January 1944 introduction (or any introduction at all)?
Safest bet is to look them up at engineering sources but I'll explain amid my own meagre comprehension.In aero engine applications, mechnically-driven superchargers typically use a throttle instead. I'm aware of wastegate configurations only for turbo-supercharged engines.
I spent quite a bit of time and argument researching this particular issue. I'm open to correction, but gathered the 601 used a mechanically driven supercharger where the 605 and 603 used a hydraulically driven one. This is consistent with the full throttle heights for these engines in conjunction with altitude performance graphs and low altitude outputs.This had nothing to do with weight - the system was already used in the DB 601, and it was later adopted by Allison and used in a fighter as heavy as the F-82.
Hi Vanir,
>In engineering a turbocharger is a layman introduced term that appeared somewhere along the way for what is just a supercharger.
What Koolkitty pointed out is that the turbo-supercharger was always used in connection with an engine-driven supercharger stage in US engines of WW2. It was not a terminology remark.
>Let's see. Mercedes Benz AG archives, Stuttgart (second hand, cited by the comprehensive DB605 homepage of an enthusiast).
You were talking about the BMW 801. Re-quoting:
"The Fw-190A system for example uses a two stop system operated by the pilot, the first stop adjusts the wastegate and the second stop activates a C3 fuel injector in the supercharger exhaust casing (used for charge cooling before MW-50 kits were available from the manufacturer in Jan44)."
So it's BMW documentation I'd like to see.
>Do you have references/documentation to the contrary?
You claim MW 50 for the BMW 801, you bring documentation. I'm quite aware of the countless claims for MW 50 in popular books, but haven't seen anything backing it up, ever. There is quite a community of researchers on the various internet fora, and I know they have been looking for information on MW 50 for years - in vain, as far as I'm aware.
>A US document at Luftwaffe experten clearly describes the manual operation of the wastegate in the mechanically driven BMW 801D supercharger, for attaining the higher boost pressures used in conjunction with C3 injection.
Well, bring it here. I believe you must be misreading something as the increased boost ("Erhöhte Notleistung") was invoked by a manually operated valve, but it affected the operation of the BMW's Kommandogerät computer, not simply that of the supercharger.
>I spent quite a bit of time and argument researching this particular issue. I'm open to correction, but gathered the 601 used a mechanically driven supercharger where the 605 and 603 used a hydraulically driven one.
The DB 601 had the same hydraulical supercharger drive as the DB 605. See attached manual page ...
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Perhaps you were thinking of the DB 600, which certainly did use a gear driven (2-speed iirc) supercharger. (it also used a pressure carburetor instead of fuel injection)I spent quite a bit of time and argument researching this particular issue. I'm open to correction, but gathered the 601 used a mechanically driven supercharger where the 605 and 603 used a hydraulically driven one.
Hi Vanir,
>I take it there's some reason you're looking for a fight?
If you can't handle a simple request for sources without taking it as a personal challenge, maybe you should stay on the safe side and don't make any doubtful claims - or better, don't make any claims at all.
>I have to go to work in five hours, so I'll answer all your questions tomorrow.
As far as I'm concerned, no need to - you're going to be on my ignore list by then.
Kind regards,
Henning (HoHun)
I've seen you do nothing but take apart posts and reference other people's efforts on three forums now. I've yet to witness a single original thought from you. Your word carries no weight with me and I thankyou for saving me the trouble.As far as I'm concerned, no need to - you're going to be on my ignore list by then.
I should give a little background. I have been modifying/building race engines in my garage on and off for 20 years and running them at places like Calder Park raceway. I've messed with Eaton superchargers, two types of centrifugal, turbos, water injection, fuel as a charge coolant (to cool blowers vanes/impeller mostly) and SU/injection carbs.I have read of a supercharger waste gate in some circumstances, but this would only make sense with a fuel injected engine. Otherwise you'd be blowing fuel-air mixture out the waste gate. (the carburator sprays fuel into the supercharger)
And in any case it would make more sence to use a throttle configuration to limit the boost. Also limiting RPM will also limit boost as the supercharger's rpm is dependant on the engine rpm. (at a given supercharger gear stetting, of course the DB supercharger vairies its speed independently but that solves the other issues in its self)
Quoted referencing:Perhaps you were thinking of the DB 600, which certainly did use a gear driven (2-speed iirc) supercharger. (it also used a pressure carburetor instead of fuel injection)
You may very well be perfectly correct here, and this description certainly sounds highly authoritive. Please can anyone settle this question with any kind of sound documentation? Where's Crumpp when you need him?It was also my understanding that MW 50 was never used operationally on the BMW 801, it had been in testing and was proposed for kits iirc, but this was dropped due to problems with its use in this engine. (iirc fractures/microfractures were found in the cylinders after its use)
I'll have to look up others. I've read repeatedly the 801D-2 had always been intended to mount MW-50, but production of the kits was delayed unexpectedly. I presume C3 injection was introduced as a stop gap. I've seen no primary source documentation...but for one.
I spent quite a bit of time and argument researching this particular issue. I'm open to correction, but gathered the 601 used a mechanically driven supercharger where the 605 and 603 used a hydraulically driven one.
I'll have to look up others. I've read repeatedly the 801D-2 had always been intended to mount MW-50, but production of the kits was delayed unexpectedly. I presume C3 injection was introduced as a stop gap. I've seen no primary source documentation...but for one.
I spent quite a bit of time and argument researching this particular issue. I'm open to correction, but gathered the 601 used a mechanically driven supercharger where the 605 and 603 used a hydraulically driven one.
I'll have to look up others. I've read repeatedly the 801D-2 had always been intended to mount MW-50, but production of the kits was delayed unexpectedly. I presume C3 injection was introduced as a stop gap. I've seen no primary source documentation...but for one.
I spent quite a bit of time and argument researching this particular issue. I'm open to correction, but gathered the 601 used a mechanically driven supercharger where the 605 and 603 used a hydraulically driven one.