Sweet spot sizes for AA guns

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z42

Senior Airman
687
444
Jan 9, 2023
I'm looking for opinions on what you guys think were the sweet spot, or optimal, sizes for AA guns in the WWII period. I found a slightly related thread from 20(!!!) years ago Best AA weapon , so maybe the time is ripe to revisit the topic.

To start the topic with my own rough thinking, you have roughly two size classes, light/medium (grouping them together here and calling it light to avoid having to type "light/medium" all the time), and heavy. The light guns are contact fuzed, and thus rely on a direct hit on the target, whereas heavy AA use time or VT fuzes to explode a big shell hopefully close enough to the target that the blast and/ or shrapnel would bring it down. Furthermore, you have land-based vs. naval AA, with slightly different requirements particularly for heavy AA.

First, land-based light AA. Increasing speeds of aircraft add two major impacts driving the optimal size upwards. First, the higher speed of aircraft meant that the AA gun had less time to pump shells into the air, and thus in order to give the AA gun more time to shoot at the target and thus increased probability of hitting, it needed increased range. And while light AA was a point defense weapon, when protecting a big target like an airfield, longer range also gives better coverage with fewer guns. Secondly, the shorter engagement time meant that multiple hits were increasingly improbable, thus the desire for a shell powerful enough to shoot down an attacking aircraft with a single hit. It seems a single 30mm shell was usually enough to shoot down a single-engined aircraft of the period. Taking into account also twin-engined aircraft were used for such close range attacks, maybe something somewhat bigger. So with this reasoning one ends up at something like the 40mm Bofors, widely regarded as the best medium AA of the war. The German 37mm wasn't that far off in size, although it had a fairly low rate of fire. Fixed in the 37mm Flak 43, but relatively few of these were deployed before the war ended. 20mm was widely used, such as the German Flakvierling, but it seems it was somewhat on the small side. Germany also developed the self-propelled Kugelblitz, mounting two 30mm Mk 103 aircraft guns in a turret on a PzIV chassis. Seems it could have been a formidable weapon, but fortunately only a few prototypes were made before the war ended. Soon after WWII Oerlikon conducted a study on the optimal light AA calibre, resulting in the ubiquitous Oerlikon 35mm AA gun.

For land-based heavy AA, it seems the mainstay of most major combatants were in the 90mm range, such as the German 88mm, the British QF 3.7" (94mm), and the US 90mm. Germany also had 10.5 cm and 12.8 cm flak cannons, but apparently they were so heavy and unwieldy that they were used mostly in static mounts. The Germans were apparently satisfied with the 12.8cm gun per se, noting that it was more cost effective than the smaller systems. Apparently due to the bigger lethal radius of the bigger shell, and the longer range of the gun meaning that fewer batteries (with assorted fire control equipment and staff etc.) were needed to cover an area? Later on the Allied systems got VT fuzes and gun-laying radar (SCR-584) which dramatically increased their lethality.

For naval light AA, much of the same considerations apply as for land-based AA. The 20mm Oerlikon was widely used as it was much smaller and lighter than the 40mm, although particularly towards the end of the war the Kamikaze threat showed the limitations of the 20mm. The short range and limited hitting power of the 20mm meant the difference it made was mainly whether the aircraft was already on fire when it hit the ship.

For naval heavy AA, the mobility issues of the heavy land-based AA guns weren't that much of an issue, and thus naval AA guns tended to be bigger than their land-based equivalents. The gold standard being the US 5"/38, although the British 4.5" was evidently also well regarded. One thing pushing the size of naval heavy AA upwards was of course also that they were dual purpose (well, at least UK and US ones), also filling the purpose of anti-surface fire. However there were quite big differences between naval and land-based heavy AA. Level bombing having shown to be almost completely worthless in hitting moving ships, attacking aircraft pressed home attacks much closer than the big four-engined fleets devastating Europe and Japan. Also when approaching a target it seems dive bombers came in at a much lower altitude than the four-engined heavy bombers, and the aircraft were smaller and more able to take evasive action to avoid heavy AA. One person on another forum seems to have a hobby horse that the heavy DP AA armaments of the US and UK were to some extent wasteful. I'm not really sure what to make of it, but the argument is not entirely without merit. Basically it goes roughly as follows:
  • Anything beyond roughly 3" is a waste. The extra range bigger guns gives is not needed for naval combat. Planes didn't fly that high, and also the small and nimble aircraft could do evasive maneuvers so that at the time of flight required to reach longer distances meant that shooting at such ranges was mostly a waste of ammunition. While a 3" shell has a smaller lethal radius than a bigger one, the gun is also much smaller and lighter, allowing more of them to be mounted on the ship for the same weight.
  • Adding high-angle capability to guns adds a lot of extra space and weight to the mounts. However fuze setters etc. are not that heavy, so one can relatively cheaply add AA capability to 4-6" guns if one wants it, as long as one doesn't insist on high-angle capability.

(And yes, after WWII the USN introduced a rapid-fire 3" with VT fuzes as a replacement for the Bofors.)
 
For USN AA, in late Pacific WW II, the real issue was to be able to literally knock the aircraft out of the sky. The 20 mm was useless, and the 40 mm close behind (however, for a gun that was fun to be a first loader on, the 40mm wins hands down, but you had to hang on real good!) The decision to go to the 3"/50 twin mount was made before the end of the war, I am pretty certain, the lead time made it miss making an impact. You say the 3" was automatic, but each gun required two manual first loaders and loading the round was not easy, particularly compared to the 40mm guns, where it was hard to do anything wrong except fall off the mount! Part of the situation was the result of making the 3" mount a direct "drop-in" for the quad 40, allowing almost achieving what today we would call "plug and play".

For naval AA today, the answer is much different, most military planners probably have come to the conclusion that aircraft and pilots are not expendable and some form of self or remotely controlled object is the threat. With greatly improved fire control and rates of fire, the ability to destroy a smaller high speed object falls back to smaller caliber guns firing at much closer ranges. No well confirmed idea what the "sweet spot" is but possibly in the 20mm to 30mm range. The key issue is whether you want to kill the object or protect the target.

ArtieBob
 
For naval AA today, the answer is much different, most military planners probably have come to the conclusion that aircraft and pilots are not expendable and some form of self or remotely controlled object is the threat. With greatly improved fire control and rates of fire, the ability to destroy a smaller high speed object falls back to smaller caliber guns firing at much closer ranges. No well confirmed idea what the "sweet spot" is but possibly in the 20mm to 30mm range. The key issue is whether you want to kill the object or protect the target.
This is getting far away from WWII, but I believe the current day thought is that while CIWS is excellent for shooting down earlier generation subsonic missiles, it has trouble with more advanced missiles that do some kind of evasive maneuvers in the final approach. Also supersonic missiles are a problem, while the thick atmosphere near the surface precludes much evasive maneuvers at Mach 3, shooting down a Mach 3 missile with unguided shells also having a muzzle velocity in the Mach 3 range isn't easy. The system doesn't have much time to correct the fire before the missile hits (or to be more precise, is so close that even if you hit it, the missile will most likely continue on a ballistic trajectory and hit your ship anyway).

Hence the development of last-ditch short range missile systems like the RAM.

It'll be interesting to se what happens wrt drones. Shooting down swarms of $1000 drones with $100000 missiles gets very expensive very quickly.
 
We may want to break things into light, medium, heavy instead of combining light and medium together.
I would suggest 25mm and under being light. (30mm is sort of by itself) and 34mm (Swiss gun, pretty irrevelent in the scheme of things) to 40mm being medium.
There were 50-57mm guns but they rarely got out of the experimental stage.

Then we have the 75mm and up (sometimes way, way up).

For land guns the big problem was weight. A 40mm Bofors was in the neighborhood of 2500kg under tow. You need a decent truck to move it and decent trucks were not all that common in early WW II. Scale up or down for light and heavy guns.

We can argue about some of the light gun details later. for now the German 20mm magazines didn't do them any favors for high rates of fire but the French, Italians and Japanese were also using small magazines.

The mediums have a wide range of effectiveness from the French/German Navies mounting semi-automatic guns (gun automatically ejects case and gunner manual loads single round like an anti-tank gun) of high velocity to the British Pom-Pom.

Land AA for mobile mounts tended to max out with the British 3.7in which weighed about 9300kg without ammo. People built bigger but then didn't move them that much.
640px-120_mm_M1_gun_1.jpg

US 120mm M1 gun, 29,000kg. over 500 built. According to legend, 4 made it overseas. lost for while, found in barn in Ireland?
Note the German(?) 88mm gun next to it.

The US 5in/38 was the gold standard for Naval AA, it wasn't really good at any one thing. It was decent at just about anything.
Larger AA tended to go in an out of fashion. British had a real fetish about 60-70 degree elevation for 6 an 8 in guns in the 1920s and early 30s. They stopped for a while in the late 30s and early 40s but went back to it (6in) with the Tiger class. It may have been keeping up the the Jones's (Americans) with the 6in Worcester class cruisers. However 6in guns that fired at 20rpm were very big and very heavy and tended to break, a lot.

More later.
 
US 6" guns
The 6"/47 Mk 16 in the various US cruisers were limited to 40 degrees elevation prior to 1943. After that new completions and refits saw that raised to 60 degrees. See Mounting Data note 3e.

Salerno & the advent of guided weapons dropped by aircraft that could remain outwith existing AA fire range sparked renewed interest. For the USN that saw a resurrection of the 1930s project to develop a 6"/47 Mk 16 DP weapon. That finally saw the light of day in the Worcester class.

US 5" weapons
There was of course the 5"/54 designed as the secondary armament of the never built Montana class BB. It finally entered service on the Midway class carriers in 1945.

Britain
With the exception of the Exeter (50 degrees), all the British 8" cruisers had turrets capable of 70 degees elevation. But with a slow rate of fire they weren't used much in that role.

The 6" twin Mk.XXI in the Leander & Arethusas had 60 degree elevation but thereafter later classes reduced it in Mk XXII & XXIII turrets to 45 degrees.

During WW2 British cruisers were refitted with barrage directors fitted with Type 283 radar so that they could use their main armaments (6" or 8") in the AA role against low flying aircraft like torpedo bombers.

Again Salerno provided renewed interest in a larger DP weapon from which the guns that went into the Tiger class cruisers were developed.
 
Thank you EwenS.
The problems with the Big Naval AA was that ambition outran capability in fire control and loading in-between the wars and fire control, loading speed, and turret traverse/ elevation only reached the levels needed post war and with a substantial increase in weight. Well over a 50% increase in turret weight. Worcester class two gun turrets were over twice as heavy as the two gun turrets on the Leander.

Planners were always looking a number of years down the road and often they guessed wrong. American 120mm AA gun could put a shell up to 60,000ft. Getting it to hit something was the hard part. Didn't really matter as the fleets of Nazi high altitude "Amerikabombers" never showed up to get shot at.
And if you don't push the envelope somewhat you may get gains that are too small.

But pushing the envelope also hurt a number of the larger AA guns and the demand for dual purpose rarely worked as hoped. Most naval guns went over the edge towards surface fire.
One problem here was that theory did not match practical results. What a gun or gun/mount could do on a 30-35,000ton Battleship hull was not could be done on 2000-2500ton destroyer hulls or 6000ton light cruiser hulls which moved around a lot more between shots hurting both fire control and rate of fire.
There was also some really optimistic expectations about long range destroyer fire in pre radar days. Turns out you need really, really good optics to see shell splashes at much over 13-14,000yds and if you don't know where you are missing you can't correct onto the target you can see. Destroyer and AA guns with ranges in high teens are pretty much an illusion. The Shells will go that far, but if you can't correct onto the surface target what is the point? And that is with shell of 5in and larger. 4in and 4.1 in guns are much worse for spotting.
Most peoples 4.5-4.7in guns were pretty much equal to the 5in.
 
For the Navies, good rapid-firing 37-40mm guns were probably the, so to say, in the starting category, allowing them to attack dive bombers before these started making the dive. Big guns depended a lot on fire control, stability (both via being installed on as big a ship as possible, and via triaxially stabilized mounts) and availability of proximity fuses, the later favoring bigger guns (as it were the 5in and the 5.25). Appeal of the 20-25 mm types was that these were very easy to install on any warship worth it's name; these, and in good numbers, might give the torpedo bombers and skip bombers a good run for their money.

For the Armies, the 'Allied mix' of 20mm and 37-40mm guns was probably as good as it gets. Again the 20mm has the appeal of being easier to manhandle on the less forgiving terrain, and the ability to be installed on much smaller and lighter vehicles than the 40mm.
German LW/Heer 37mm Flak was barely more powerful (shell_weight x muzzle_velocity) than the MK 101 or 103 of 30 mm, but it was substantially heavier and with lower RoF. Luckily for the many Allied airmen, they didn't make the automatic spin-off of the powerful but slow-firing Naval 37mm Flak. They also failed to deploy the MK 101 and 103 in the Flak role (say, two on the mount for the quadruple 20mm?, and/or on the vehicles).
Big guns - if one does not intend to move them a lot, the British 3.7in was probably in the sweet spot. If movement is anticipated, the German 88mm L56 types were probably the best.
 

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