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Well, no
not operationally anyway but the Pucara never flew against the Whirlwind either
Thing is AdlerYes but the Pucara was not the Ta 183, it was only based off of the design. So again, how can we compare an aircraft that was never built with an aircraft that was operational?
Thanks Joe and sorry MikeMike, the Vampire did have a portion of its nose made from plywood
Folks, a few thoughts...
Never judge a book by its cover. Remember fighters are SUPPOSED to be a bit unstable,
To a degree they are, but there are aerodynamic forces lurking to crush any high speed deviation. The Vampire had fairly carefree handling characteristics, and buffet prevented it from much exceeding Mach 0.8 but it was a good gun platform at normal combat speeds. We simply do not know how the Ta 183 would have behaved. People can speculate all they like about what it may theoretically have been capable of, but with the tried and tested Vampire we actually know. My personal view is that the German design was an act of desperation and it is fortunate that nobody was called upon to test it.
As for the Vampire, the only foibles as far as I was concerned was a jerky spin with a delayed reaction exit and the need to trim rapidly when flaps were selected. Otherwise I thoroughly enjoyed my time on them.
I'd say that your opinion was a little wide of the markMy personal view is that the German design was an act of desperation and it is fortunate that nobody was called upon to test it
You proved my point - unless there is some concrete evidence to say the aircraft was "unstable" (again when stating that, let's be specific), I roll back to my original statement, don't judge a book by its cover.Folks, a few thoughts...
Never judge a book by its cover. Remember fighters are SUPPOSED to be a bit unstable,
To a degree they are, but there are aerodynamic forces lurking to crush any high speed deviation. The Vampire had fairly carefree handling characteristics, and buffet prevented it from much exceeding Mach 0.8 but it was a good gun platform at normal combat speeds. We simply do not know how the Ta 183 would have behaved. People can speculate all they like about what it may theoretically have been capable of, but with the tried and tested Vampire we actually know. My personal view is that the German design was an act of desperation and it is fortunate that nobody was called upon to test it.
As for the Vampire, the only foibles as far as I was concerned was a jerky spin with a delayed reaction exit and the need to trim rapidly when flaps were selected. Otherwise I thoroughly enjoyed my time on them.
Just a small correction:
The expected climb rate of the Ta-183 was 6,100 ft/min, not 4,100 ft/min, also seems reasonable considering the higher P/W ratio
And Adler is absolutely right, the Pulqui II Ta-183 cannot at all be compared, they are two very different a/c. On the Ta-183 the fuselage is short narrow and the wing is mid mounted, futhermore pitch was controlled with elevons. The Pulqui II featured a high mounted wing, long wide fuselage (different engine nessicated a completely new design) with pitch being controlled with normal elevators on a high mounted horizontal stabilizer, and this caused deep stall problems which is what plagued the Pulqui II. The Ta-183 wouldn't have experienced this however and the design looks sound.
As for how the Ta-183 Vampire would've done against each other, I can't really say, but the Ta-183's performance would've been higher, which is awlays a plus.
I think if you lok closely , the stats for Ta183 are on the left, Vampire right.
Thing is Adler
if the two flew in combat with each other, we'd have lots of hard data on which was best at what and overall, who was likely to come out on top - so no need for a poll. For a poll to be fun, surely a sprinkling of what-if can do no harm?
Pilot Notes:
A captured model of the Ta-183 was tested in the TsAGI wind tunnel post war, and immediately uncovered a fatal mistake in the design. Flutter and subsequent structural failure of the tail unit began at only 700 km/h. Therefore we've had to artificially strengthen the tail unit by a great amount, in order to allow for the design to reach specified speeds while still keeping the famous original shape.
In reality such a redesign would have been near impossible, and most likely the tail unit would have been radically redesigned instead (such as was the case with the historical Pulqui II fighter built by Kurt Tank after the war).
In general, the plane is modeled with several concessions that were possible to make only using the knowledge gained post the 1950s.
You can dismiss it as baloney but unless the wind tunnel was inaccurate, it's possible at high speeds the tail of the Ta-183 would have broken off. Lots of odd things happen at close to the speed of sound, and the tail of the Ta-183 does look a bit vulnerable, with it's rather long length.