Hello,This is my first post on this forum.We all know that the BF-109K4 requires manual operation of the inertial starter to reach a certain speed before pulling the starter handle to start the engine. So, Can a person first preset all the switches in the cockpit and then take out the hand crank from the storage compartment behind the pilot's seat ,Climb onto the wing, shake the hand crank, then quickly run back to the cockpit and pull the starter handle to start the engine by himself? I found through DCS testing that after the ground crew turned the starter handle, there was approximately 15 seconds when it could support you to pull the starter handle to start the engine, but I don't know if this is realistic...Apperciate for any reply!
Technically, Is it feasible in reality to start BF-109K4 with just one person? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rocaf2003
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Crimea_River
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The simple answer is, Yes it can be done, I have done it on a Bf 109 G in the 1990's! I am possibly the only person alive who has. However, you need to have everything set ready
and it is not really a good idea.
The starter crank takes a lot of hard work to build up to 90rpm for a full speed start with the inertia flywheel at about 14,000rpm. If someone was really doing this, they would also have to consider what they planned to do with the crank handle, as it should be stowed away in the baggage space, but I just needed to throw the handle on the grass.
On a nice warm day with a warm engine, you will have about 15 sec before the starter crank drops to about 60rpm (1 rev/sec) from a full speed wind, and we would usually only wind to 1 rev/sec for a warm start anyway, because it was hard work and it did not need the full speed for a start in good conditions.
An additional point is that most if not all "Bf 109" today are modified for the electric inertia starter that has manual winding as a backup.
Cheers
Eng
and it is not really a good idea.
The starter crank takes a lot of hard work to build up to 90rpm for a full speed start with the inertia flywheel at about 14,000rpm. If someone was really doing this, they would also have to consider what they planned to do with the crank handle, as it should be stowed away in the baggage space, but I just needed to throw the handle on the grass.
On a nice warm day with a warm engine, you will have about 15 sec before the starter crank drops to about 60rpm (1 rev/sec) from a full speed wind, and we would usually only wind to 1 rev/sec for a warm start anyway, because it was hard work and it did not need the full speed for a start in good conditions.
An additional point is that most if not all "Bf 109" today are modified for the electric inertia starter that has manual winding as a backup.
Cheers
Eng
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- #4
Dear Sir:
Apperciate for your professional help,Sir!Your help is extremely important to me!I still have one more question and I'm looking forward to your professional help: Is there a specific limit on the number of turns for turning the starter crank? The reason for asking such a question is that I think if the starter crank could be turned a few more times (theoretically, this would provide more energy to the inertial flywheel), then its duration should be able to last longer. But if the starter has some kind of limitation (for example, if the flywheel speed is too high, it will cause mechanical damage?) Then there is a specific limit on the number of turns for turning the starter crank to prevent the inertial flywheel from rotating at too high a speed and getting damaged,Looking forward for your reply,Sir!
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- #5
Thank you,Sir!
Hi,
The German versions of the inertia starter were originally a Bosch licence on the American "Eclipse" inertia starter from the 1930's. However, Germany developed these themselves and ceased licence payments during the War.
There is no real limit on the number of turns for turning the starter crank, and the speed of the crank and the flywheel are pretty much limited by the physical ability of the men turning the crank. For example, it is easy once the handle is sped-up to 1rev/sec to keep it turning with little effort (if waiting), but the extra effort to reach 1.5rev/sec is exponential, and self limiting.
Yes, the faster turning starter flywheel has more energy and turns the engine more quickly. However, the starter has an internal slipping clutch and will not exceed its own max Torque.
The German instructions are typically strict. They state that the handle MUST be removed after winding before the engine is started, but crews regularly continued to wind during starts if there were problems. Also, the instructions state that the flywheel MUST be allowed to stop between start attempts, but this is cobblers, we would regularly re-start winding the starter after a failed start, there was no reason not to.
The electrically operated versions had some slightly different procedures, but were effectively the same.
Eng
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- #7
Dear Sir:
First of all, it's a great honor to receive your professional help again. I saw a similar situation to what you said in a video of the BF-109G2(it seems to be black No. 6) : I noticed that when the starter crank was turned about 20 times, it seemed that the engine could be attempted to start (although it didn't seem to start very smoothly). This was repeated three times without success. On the fourth start, the starter crank was turned 25 times: yes, just five more turns than the last time, and the engine started successfully. But I found that the person who turned the starter crank five more times seemed to be able to do it with one hand instead of both hands. This situation, combined with the automatic protection function of the starter you mentioned, likely indicates that the starter crank has a specific number of turns. Beyond this number of turns, it will not increase the duration that the inertial flywheel can last: the additional energy generated by turning the crank is consumed by automatic protection devices such as the sliding clutch.
The amount of turns of the starter crank-handle are irrelevant. Simply, if you turn it hard it gets up speed faster than if you turn it less hard. The slipping clutch is in the high-Torque output drive to the engine crankshaft, not in the drive to the flywheel which is a fixed gear drive ratio 161:1 . Sometimes the starter would be wound and the there would be a delay, then it would be wound again. There is no correlation of winding turns to start success.
Eng
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- #9
Apperciate for your patient and important help,Sir!I undersstand about that, Sir. That is to say, if you are willing to turn the starter crank a little longer, regardless of whether you apply force or not, the flywheel's rotational speed will still increase, and the energy will be more abundant, thus providing a longer holding time to support starting the engine.
No, not as you write it here. The energy in the flywheel is entirely related to the final speed of rotation, not the number of cranking turns, and the rate of rotation is increased in relation to the applied force by the man turning the handle. The force applied varies a great deal from little to a lot depending on the man so, the actual number of turns is not a direct measure of the energy in the flywheel. Finally, having got the flywheel to the 1.5rev/sec input speed, the starter is at max energy, regardless if it took 20 turns, 30 turns or 1,000 turns!
Eng
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- #11
Oh, I'm sorry I misunderstood. Please forgive my stupidity, Sir. I was incredibly stupid. It's only now that I truly understandThat is to say, the 1:161 transmission ratio should refer to the relationship between the speed of turning the starter handle and the rotational speed of the inertial flywheel. Therefore, no matter how slowly it rotates at the beginning or how many turns it has made, as long as the speed of the starter handle is fast enough at the moment when the starter handle is pulled out, the speed of the flywheel will increase accordingly. If you vigorously shake the starter handle to increase its speed when it is not so difficult to turn at the back, the speed of the inertial flywheel can be raised and it can last longer. In simple terms, a faster speed of the starter handle is needed, not the number of turns
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- #13
Appreciate for your help,Sir!
