Technology and Science from 1901 to 1945

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by TempestMKV, Nov 30, 2008.

  1. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

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    Soren's statement surprised me a bit, I admit that he is quite familar with axis weapons, but what he need is to learn more about allied.

    What's the essence of WWII and WWI?

    World wars are contention for leadership of the world, that is, German empire wanted to take the place of English speaking countries which are mainly UK/USA , and which held nealy 60% industry, 60% sea power and 60% technology/science of the whole world.

    Therefore, the challenger's destiny is doomed, hopeless unless the Martian intervene the earth. LOL


    There is a article called <<A Thousand Years of Science and Scientists:988 to 1988>> written by Davies, Mansell. and which is worthy of reading by us.

    Here is the address (from Harvard Uni?).
    http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/...IEW&data_type=PDF_HIGH&send=GET&filetype=.pdf


    UK and USA technology/science outcome account for 56.3% of the whole world, and 3 times as many as Deutsch 2nd Reich and 3rd Reich.
     

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  2. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    You need to get better educated about European history through the last 300 years Tempest.
     
  3. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

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    Good, here are 350 years history in Europe.
     

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  4. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Err, what is it you're trying to prove with those figures Tempest ??
     
  5. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Do I need to point out that Germany could boast with being home to roughly half of the entire world's nobel prize winners by the start of WW2 ?
     
  6. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

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    weapon development background.

    Do you believe China can produce the 1st-class weapons in recent 300 years?

    Definitely, you DON'T believe, neither do I. :) Because Chinese tech/science outcomes were so few in recent centuries.

    And here is another article about 3rd Reich weapon-developement background, called <<WALL STREET AND
    THE RISE OF HITLER >> where the author demonstrated the enormous capital and tech/science transfer from UK/USA towards Nazi German after WWI.

    Note that capital and tech/science are the most important factors in weapon developement.

    WALL STREET AND THE RISE OF HITLER, by Antony C. Sutton
     

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  7. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    There's a reason the Germans were fielding better more advanced aircraft, vehicles, guns, smallarms, Uboats electronics than everybody else ;)
     
  8. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    You don't seem to understand what you're using as reference.

    The US aided German financially before WW2, NOT scientifically, and also provided a lot of natural resources. (As the case with IG Farben) Infact the US paid for German technology, funding Hitler's war production. The Germans were way ahead when it came to the science of synthetic fuels, and the US oil companies payed millions to get the technology from them.
     
  9. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Check this out:
    IG Farben - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    IG Farben scientists made fundamental contributions to all areas of chemistry. Otto Bayer discovered the polyaddition for the synthesis of polyurethane in 1937.[25] Several IG Farben scientists were awarded a Nobel Prize. Carl Bosch and Friedrich Bergius were awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1931 "in recognition of their contributions to the invention and development of chemical high pressure methods".[26] Gerhard Domagk was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1939 "for the discovery of the antibacterial effects of prontosil".[27] Kurt Alder was awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry (together with Otto Diels) in 1950 "for his [their] discovery and development of the diene synthesis".[28]
     
  10. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

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    1)Nobel Prize is not everything, there are some other important awards such as Ruska, Gardner, Wolf, filtz and Turing.

    2) UK/USA Nobel prize winners are as many as german. For exmaple, from 1901-1945, both UK and german had 10 physics Nobel prize winners; UK has 1 more medical Nobel prize than german. German had more chemical Nobel than UK/USA. Howver, if u acount all Nobel prize winners from 1901-1945, u will find that UK+USA had more.

    3)Although Nobel prize is the most important award, it concerns more about science than technology while weapon is a technology,in my opinion.

    4)The turnning point is 1920/WWI. The statistics said that USA chemical outcomes exceeded german from 1920 although german had more chemical Nobel winners at that time. Note that after WWI, about 2000 german/austria scientists immigrated to USA.

    5)BEFORE hitler's rise in 1933, BEFORE many jew scientists were forced to leave germany, the tech/science level of USA had already exceeded germany. The turning piont is 1918-1920.

    If you need proof, I'll post them.
     
  11. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Tempest there is no proof to your claims, they're ridiculous.

    Also science technology go hand in hand, those who lead the way in one also lead the way on the other.

    And the lists you have provided we have no way of saying how reliable they are or what how many fields of science they incorperate into their final count, and so they're worth nothing at all in our debate.
     
  12. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Btw, plz downsize the pictures you uploaded.
     
  13. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

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    CHAPTER FOUR: Standard Oil Fuels World War II

    In December 1929 the new company, Standard I.G. Company, was organized. F.A. Howard was named president, and its German and American directors were announced as follows: E.M. Clark, Walter Duisberg, Peter Hurll, R.A. Reidemann, H.G. Seidel, Otto von Schenck, and Guy Wellman.

    The majority of the stock in the research company was owned by Standard Oil. The technical work, the process development work, and the construction of three new oil-from-coal plants in the United States was placed in the hands of the Standard Oil Development Company, the Standard Oil technical subsidiary. It is clear from these contemporary reports that the development work on oil from coal was undertaken by Standard Oil of New Jersey within the United States, in Standard Oil plants and with majority financing and control by Standard. The results of this research were made available to I.G. Farben and became the basis for the development of Hitler's oil from-coal-program which made World War II possible.
    The Haslam article, written by a former Professor of Chemical Engineering at M.I.T. (then vice president of Standard Oil of New Jersey) argued — contrary to these recorded facts — that Standard Oil was able, through its Farben agreements, to obtain German technology for the United States. Haslam cited the manufacture of toluol and paratone (Op-panol), used to stabilize viscosity of oil, an essential material for desert and Russian winter tank operations, and buna rubber. However, this article, with its erroneous self-serving claims, found its way to wartime Germany and became the subject of a "Secret" I.G. Farben memorandum dated June 6, 1944 from Nuremburg defendent and then-Farben official von Knieriem to fellow Farben management officials. This yon Knieriem "Secret" memo set out those facts Haslam avoided in his Petroleum Times article. The memo was in fact a summary of what Standard was unwilling to reveal to the American public — i.e., the major contribution made by Standard Oil of New Jersey to the Nazi war machine. The Farben memorandum states that the Standard Oil agreements were absolutely essential for I.G. Farben:

    The closing of an agreement with Standard was necessary for technical, commercial, and financial reasons:technically, because the specialized experience which was available only in a big oil company was necessary to the further development of our process, and no such industry existed in Germany; commercially, because in the absence of state economic control in Germany at that time, IG had to avoid a competitive struggle with the great oil powers, who always sold the best gasoline at the lowest price in contested markets; financially, because IG, which had already spent extraordinarily large sums for the development of the process, had to seek financial relief in order to be able to continue development in other new technical fields, such as buna.8

    The Farben memorandum then answered the key question: What did I.G. Farben acquire from Standard Oil that was "vital for the conduct of war?" The memo examines those products cited by Haslam — i.e., iso-octane, tuluol, Oppanol-Paratone, and buna — and demonstrates that contrary to Standard Oil's public claim, their technology came to a great extent from the U.S., not from Germany.
    On iso-octane the Farben memorandum reads, in part,

    By reason of their decades of work on motor fuels, the Americans were ahead of us in their knowledge of the quality requirements that are called for by the different uses of motor fuels. In particular they had developed, at great expense, a large number of methods of testing gasoline for different uses. On the basis of their experiments they had recognized the good anti, knock quality of iso-octane long before they had any knowledge of our hydrogenation process. This is proved by the single fact that in America fuels are graded in octane numbers, and iso-octane was entered as the best fuel with the number 100. All this knowledge naturally became ours as a result of the agreement, which saved us much effort and protected us against many errors.

    I.G. Farben adds that Haslam's claim that the production of iso-octane became known in America only through the Farben hydrogenation process was not correct:

    Especially in the case of iso-octane, it is shown that we owe much to the Americans because in our own work we could draw widely on American information on the behavior of fuels in motors. Moreover, we were also kept currently informed by the Americans on the progress of their production process and its further development.

    Shortly before the war, a new method for the production of iso-octane was found in America — alkylation with isomerization as a preliminary step. This process, which Mr. Haslain does not mention at all, originates in fact entirely with the Americans and has become known to us in detail in its separate stages through our agreements with them, and is being used very extensively by us.


    On toluol, I.G. Farben points to a factual inaccuracy in the Haslam article: toluol was not produced by hydrogenation in the U.S. is claimed by Professor Haslam. In the case of Oppanol, the I.G. memo calls Haslam's information "incomplete" and so far as buna rubber is concerned, "we never gave technical information to the Americans, nor did technical cooperation in the buna field take place." Most importantly, the Farben memo goes on to describe some products not cited by Haslam in his article:

    As a consequence of our contracts with the Americans, we received from them, above and beyond the agreement, many very valuable contributions for the synthesis and improvement of motor fuels and lubricating oils, which Just now during the war are most useful to us; and we also received other advantages from them. Primarily, the following may be mentioned:

    (1) Above all, improvement of fuels through the addition of tetraethyl-lead and the manufacture of this product. It need not be especially mentioned that without tetraethl-lead the present methods of warfare would be impossible. The fact that since the beginning of the war we could produce tetraethyl-lead is entirely due to the circumstances that, shortly before, the Americans had presented us with the production plans, complete with their know-how. It was, moreover, the first time that the Americans decided to give a license on this process in a foreign country (besides communication of unprotected secrets) and this only on our urgent requests to Standard Oil to fulfill our wish. Contractually we could not demand it, and we found out later that the War Department in Washington gave its permission only after long deliberation.

    (2) Conversion of low-molecular unsaturates into usable gasoline (polymerization). Much work in this field has been done here as well as in America. But the Americans were the first to carry the process through on a large scale, which suggested to us also to develop the process on a large technical scale. But above and beyond that, plants built according to American processes are functioning in Germany.

    (3) In the field of lubricating oils as well, Germany through the contract with America, learned of experience which is extraordinarily important for present day warfare.


    In this connection, we obtained not only the experience of Standard, but, through Standard, the experiences of General Motors and other large American motor companies as well.

    (4) As a further remarkable example of advantageous effect for us of the contract between IG and Standard Oil, the following should be mentioned: in the years 1934 / 1935 our government had the greatest interest in gathering from abroad a stock of especially valuable mineral oil products (in particular, aviation gasoline and aviation lubricating oil), and holding it in reserve to an amount approximately equal to 20 million dollars at market value. The German Government asked IG if it were not possible, on the basis o fits friendly relations with Standard Oil, to buy this amount in Farben's name; actually, however, as trustee of the German Government. The fact that we actually succeeded by means of the most difficult negotiations in buying the quantity desired by our government from the American Standard Oil Company and the Dutch — English Royal — Dutch — Shell group and in transporting it to Germany, was made possible only through the aid of the Standard Oil Co.
     
  14. Soren

    Soren Banned

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  15. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

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    Both B4 and C3 fuel have Ethyl Lead, I can't image how DB601/605 work without Ethyl Lead.
     
  16. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    But before going any further it is pointless to debate the oil industry as thise has nothing to do with weapons technology or technology in general.
     
  17. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    The fact of the matter is that Germany was ahead in most areas of science technology during WW2, as demonstrated in their fielded material. Now as to how much they were ahead, well, that's debately, but they were far ahead in some key areas including aerodynamics engineering.

    But to make myself a bit clearer: The Germans were flying sophisticated jet aircraft when everyone else were flying propeller aircraft. The Germans were using auto pilots and engine management computers in their a/c, something nobody else had. The Germans were using guided bombs missiles when everyone else knew either squat in this field or were just experimenting with the idea. The Germans were seeing clearly in the night when everyone else either had no clue how to achieve this or were having a very hard tme trying to achieve the same.

    And like I said the German advantage in technology was clearly demonstrated in the equipment they fielded, the below being unrivalled in their field:

    Aircraft:
    Me-262A-1a, best fighter of WW2
    Ta-152H C, best piston engined fighter of WW2
    He-162A-2, ranks alongside the Me262
    FW-190 D-12 13, second to the Ta152
    Ar-234B-2, best recon a/c of WW2
    Ar-232, best transport a/c of WW2
    Ju-388, best nightfighter of WW2

    Vehicles:
    Pzkpfw.VI Tiger Ausf.E B, most advanced, powerful and best heavy tanks of WW2
    Pzkpfw.V Panther, overall best tank of WW2
    JagdTiger, most powerful TD of WW2
    JagdPanther, best TD of WW2
    etc etc..

    Smallarms:
    MG-42, the best machinegun of WW2 and all time.
    MG-34, the second best machine gun of WW2.
    FG-42, one of the most advanced smallarms of WW2, a supurb LMG.
    StG.44, THE best smallarm of WW2.
    M98, the best bolt action rifle of all time.

    Aircraft armament:
    30mm Mk-108
    30mm Mk-103
    15mm MG151

    Big guns:
    128mm KwK/PaK 44 L/55 L/61, the most powerful AT gun of WW2.
    88mm KwK/PaK 43 L/71, the best tank AT gun of WW2.
    75mm KwK/PaK 42 L/70, the second best tank gun of WW2.
    170mm K-18, the best heavy artillery piece of WW2.

    Naval:
    Type XXI Uboat, best uboat of WW2
    Type XXIII, ranks alongside the XXI

    Other:
    V-1 V-2 self-guided ballistic missiles
    Fritz-X, guided bomb
    X-4, guided Anti Air missile

    And the list goes on and on and on...
     
  18. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

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    let's talk about weapons. At first I have a queation: in 1940 when USSR tanks T34 outperformanced german III/IV, who believe the tech/science level of USSR was above German?

    Almost nobody.

    In 1943 when german tanks(Panzer Tiger) outperformanced allied tanks(M4), who believe the the tech/science level of German was above allied?

    Some people believe.

    That's the point, weapon development need capital, tech/science and military requirment time.

    In 1940, german had enough capital&tech in tank field, but the requirment for panzer/tiger, the time needed for developement were not available, so USSR tanks outperformanced german's in 1940 to early 1941.


    Same for allied, after D day, in 1945,the requirment for better tanks and developement time were available, so pershing and centurion came out.


    With regard to tank/aa guns, I've posted some data, the british 17pdr gun is as good as kwk42.
    BTW, kwk42 is a tapered-bore gun. High-wear tapered-bore technology was old and had no future. The L70 long barrel costs more than 17pdr's L58.

    German 128mm AA gun(later 128mm kwk44) in 1942 was outperformanced by USA 120mm M1 AA gun in 1940.


    USA L70 90mm T15E1/T18 gun (fixed ammo post war)was as good as kwk43.

    USA 90mm M3 gun was as good as german kwk36.

    USA optics in pershing was as good as panzer's, note that pershing had a stablizer.


    Geman weapons in WWII were very good, but so were allied.
     
  19. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    But that is not true Tempest, the KwK42 is not a tapered bore gun.

    Nope. Check the figures for both guns, weight included. The 120mm M1 AA gun weighed some 5.5 tons more than the 128mm FlaK40, yet the FlaK40 fires a heavier shell at 880 m/s to a higher ceiling of some 17,600 m.

    The 88mm FlaK41 L/71 has a ceiling of 15,000 m.

    No it wasn't, it was heavier, slower less accurate compared to the KwK43.

    And note when it was fielded, some 3 years later.

    Again that is completely untrue Tempest. The optics in the Pershing weren't anywhere near as good as those the German panzers featured. German tanks were from the start of WW2 and to the end fitted with the best optics in the world, nothing came close, and that's a fact.

    Now please, before making more claims, check your sources!
     
  20. TempestMKV

    TempestMKV Member

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    You need tons of knowledge of allied weapons, Soren.

    British Jet planes developement was as good as german.

    April 12, 1937 Frank Whittle successfully bench-tests the world's first gas turbine engine designed for aircraft.

    Anyway,the jet plane tech was far from maturaity in WWII, applying such tech in a hurry can only prove how despotare 3rd Reich was. Me262 just can't pass the production standard of allied. BTW, Gloster meteor came into service 8 days ealier than M262, although early meteor was outperformenced by Me262.

    British jet engine was second to none from 1930s to 1960s, in 1946, Nene engine was far better than german's and USSR/USA was behind british in this field even in 1960.

    I admit that german tech had some advantages but allied also had their own.

    F80 is as good as me262.

    21lbs boost Spitfire XIV outperformanced Ta152 and Dora.

    Pershing outperformanced tiger, as good as panzer.

    JagdTiger was most powerful TD of WW2 in service, because JSU130 had a more powerful gun.

    Both Su100 and JagdPanther are best TD of WW2

    Browning .50 is the best heavy mechine gun, better than Mg131.
    M1 is the best semi-automatic.

    USSR B20 and UK Hispano was as good as, if not better than Mg151/20.

    170mm K-18, the best heavy artillery piece of WW2???? Don't forget USSR 203mm.

    allied had "television-directed" in WWII, and P61 the best night fighting a/c.

    Note that allied had advantages in Radar, computer.

    etc..

    It's piontless to list advantages here. Let's discuss some technical issues, for example, the aviation piston engine.
     
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