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As is typical here you seem to have gone off on a tangent about something I never wrote and then made an assumption & really ran with it.
I never said anything about miniaitures games.
You can really see how this plays out in more realistic tabletop or even computer war games simulating tank battles in this era.
A totally ridiculous statement. The war might have gone on longer and been more costly but the Japanese had 0.0 chance of winning the war unless the US simply quit. The US could out build tha Japanese by over a factor of 10 to 1.
A lot of this depends on how good or numerous the Japanese CAP is. Four Zeros (or eight) against several squadrons of any dive bomber could not shoot them all down.
people here are getting into the black and white type argument.
Only the SBD could have sunk four Japanese carriers, no other dive bomber would have sunk any.
Only the SBD could fight it's way through defending fighters. no other dive bomber would have a chance.
Except in the case at Midway the dive bombers didn't fight their way through the Japanese CAP or at least not much of one. Out of position, few planes and those that were there were short on ammo. If you are playing air to air games you are not dive bombing. The SBDs air to air capabilities may have kept losses low after the bombs were dropped and the planes were getting out of the area.
Now let us imagine that instead of all those squadrons of Dauntless you had the same number of Vought SB2U (or an updated version) aircraft attacking from the same positions with the Japanese aircraft and ships in their same positions and conditions.
What difference was there in the Dauntless that would enable it to score such a success while while the Vindicator would have failed?
The Vindicator may well have suffered higher losses to AA fire and/or higher losses to the Japanese fighters once they pulled out of their dives but what would have prevented the Vindicator from getting pretty much the same number of hits?
Now there may have been other attributes (range/endurance or cruising speed/altitude) that would have prevented the Vindicators from being in the right place at the right time but that is a somewhat different discussion.
Except often they don't give you sense of what was going on. I will take this to the other thread.The only point I was making was that certain games can give you a sense of what the problem was actually like - I never said nor did I even imply this was the source of my knowledge on this.
A more accurate comment would be
Only the SBD could have sunk four Japanese carriers, no other dive bomber available to the Allies would have sunk all four.
Only the SBD could fight it's way through the defending fighters with sufficient aircraft surviving to sink ships and return with their aircrews (see above).
Getting through the CAP is part of it, hitting the target is part, getting back with a living aircrew is another part.
The Vindicator looks kind of similar visually, I'll give you that. But it's a superficial comparison. You are showing your ignorance.
The biggest problem is indeed the range - the Vindicator had half of the range of the SBD, that alone would have precluded a Midway victory. But it's not the only problem. The Vidicator had an 850 hp engine vs. 1,000 (later 1,200) on the SBD, and it was widely considered underpowered. It was not well protected by armor etc., apparently had issues with bombing accuracy and was very poorly armed, offensive firepower consisting of one .30 cal mg in the outer wing. This is a major difference from two 12.7mm HMG in the nose.
The underpowered, short-legged, barely armed Vought 'Vibrator' couldn't survive the brutal environment of Naval combat in the South Pacific in 1942.
US M3 light, M3 medium and M4 medium tanks were a major part of the British / Commonwealth tank forces at El Alamein, and the M4 in particular was the tip of the spear. Detailed breakdown of the TO & E isn't hard to find.
Historically, the US carriers were withdrawn 8th August , leaving behind a cruiser force that was thought strong enough to deal with the local IJN forces at hand. Unfortunately for the allies, the socalled Japanese 8th fleet, based at Rabaul had been strengthened somewahat, unknown to the allies (though the allies did receive advance coastwatcher reports of the approach of that fleet down the slot. What the allies failed to appreciate was the night fighting capabilities of the Japanese, which is unforgivable really, since they had already encountered it in a major sea battle (java Sea)
Guadacanal was initially a "smash and grab" exercise...….get ashore, get the airfield going, wait for the Japanese to react, and start the attrition process. Fletchers decision to clear the area was over the protests of the allied cruiser commander (Adm Turner), but it was consistent with the general concepts worked out in the planning phases behind the operation.
Given that these fundamental principals were worked out before Midway, it follows that the mission was planned to go ahead with or without midway. The only scenario where Guadacanal would not play out from August (in fact the original concept was for the operation to take place in July) was in the situation that the US carriers suffered catastropjic and one sided losses. That scenario would make it impossible to mount effective re-supply operations and place the marines in an exposed and indefensible position.
They made up about 25% of the Commonwealth tank force...but the M4 was known as "the Ronson" to Commonwealth forces and "the Tommy Cooker" to the Germans. 'Fraid I'm struggling to understand how the British Commonwealth couldn't have won El Alamein without the M3s and M4s...and before anyone suggests that their tank force would be 25% smaller, I'm not sure that's a valid statement because it implies that the British Commonwealth had no other tanks anywhere that could have been used.
Bottom line here is that I'm still not seeing how the British Commonwealth would have lost the North African Campaign just because it lacked a few hundred M3s and M4s. 'Fraid that dog doesn't hunt for me.
Parsifal, I'm not saying you're wrong regarding American intentions. Assuming it is true, I think that it would have been folly for the Americans to try to take Guadalcanal if the Combined Fleet was intact in its pre-Midway state.
I'm not suggesting they weren't significant...although I suspect it depends whether we're discussing First or Second El Alamein as the numbers probably changed between the 2 battles (I suspect my 25% is from the First El Alamein). I'm simply suggesting that the world (or, more specifically, the war) wouldn't have stopped had the lend-lease resources not been present. Again, from 1940 onwards Britain was out-producing Germany alone. There might have been a delay in when the Desert War was won but I don't think the outcome was changed significantly overall.
Again, this entire sub-thread drift points back to the post which claimed that, without lend-lease, the UK would have been dead in 1942 and the North Africa Campaign would have been lost. I simply don't think that's an accurate reflection of reality.
Can we please add the 2,000 locomotives and 17,000 railroad cars and just call it "rolling stock"? with the Liberty ship? ('cuz it don't help if you ain't where the fight is gonna be!)
True but in the context of Midway what mattered was getting those hits on the japanese carriers, anything else was gravy.
Even if the four .50 cal in wings is bogus there is little doubt that the Vindicator could be fitted with four .30 cal guns in the wings, fitted with self-sealing tanks (at a reduction in range) and fitted with armor as the British planes had all that stuff. The V-167 also shows that a more powerful engine could be fitted to help offset the weight weight which was not done and was the main complaint.
But by 1944 the edge is narrowing rapidly with the advent of the 17 pounder, the T-34 / 85, the SU -100 and 100mm D-10 gun, the JS -II and the 122mm D25-T ... and in the air, the Yak-3, the La 7, the Spit XIV and 22, the Tempest etc. (not even counting American made planes). So maybe England and Russia would have pulled ahead.