The best AFV in the Kursk bulge 1943.

Wich was the best tank/tankhunter in the Kursk-Orel battle

  • Klimenti Vorozhilov KV-1S

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Churchill Mk-III/IV

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Panzer III ausf.M

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    12

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Well, I can not argue that it was the "best", but the Ferdinand was definitely the most successful tank destroyer of this time period, and probably in the whole WW2.
In total only 90 Ferdianands destroyed some 800 soviet AFV's, at a cost of only 13 own losses by sPzJagAbt 656 and a few more unknown losses by sPzJagAbt 653 (of which most were disabled by mines or
mechanical breakdown rather than by enemy fire). The Ferdinand's were almost immortal to any Soviet gun.
Almost no Soviet tank or anti tank gun was capable of penetrating its armor at medium to long range, except only a very few anti tank guns such as the ZIS-3, SU-76 SPG and of course the 152mm gun of the SU-152.
But regular Russian tanks such as T34 or KV1 had no effective gun to penetrate even the side or rear armor, so it's obvious that none Ferdinand was ever destroyed by a T34 or KV1 tank.
Without any doubt, one or another was knocked out by SU-152's, as this was the only effective weapon to counter it at medium to long range.
Some Russian soruces however try to exaggerate the numbers of Ferdinand killed by SU-152, which is mostly ridiculous far fetched propaganda.

The Tiger was a less successful tank killer in relation to kills per losses, however it was still more successfull overall because there were more Tigers deployed, which means they had a greater impact overall. Like the Ferdinand, it had the best allround protection and survivability on the battlefield, which allowed it survive many hits from Sovoet tank guns and score numerous kills, before getting destroyed or disabled by enemy fire. It was nearly immortal from the front, only the side hull armor could be penetrated by T34 and KV if they came close as 100 meters. But only rarely got Russian tanks the chance to get this close to a Tiger on open terrain. Again, the only effective weapons to counter the Tiger were ZIS-3, SU-76, SU-122 and SU-152.

The Panter was also a good tank killer overall, but only in relation to its own numbers. A single Panther alone however wasn't that effective because it lacked the good allround protection of the Tiger.
Having very vulnerable side and rear armor, it didn't have this superb survivabilty that the Tiger and Ferdinand had. Most Panthers were easilly destroyed by flank hits even at long range.
Even the T34 and KV1 could already penetrate its weak side armor at over a kilometer. Which is why there are at least 10 Tiger aces credited with over 100 tank kills, but not a single Panther ace credited with 100 tank kills.
(the highest scoring Panther ace achieved "only" 60 tank kills).

KV-1 was only effective against early German Panzers like Mark II and III, and only at close to medium range. But against even a Panzer IV F2 it was already inferior.
Not even to mention the bad accuracy of its tiny gun. It was maybe a fearsome beast back in 1941/42 but in 1943 it wasn't that good anymore.
Although there were a few instances where KV1 crews achived some impressive victories in 1942, but they fought only against light German tanks with automatic machine guns. Not that impressive, is it?

The StuG's were good tank killers too, but again only in respect to their numbers. A single StuG alone isn't that impressive,
Although It did have a very good front armor that made it invulnerable against early T34 and KV1 guns. Since it's the most produced German AFV in WW2, it claims the most tank kills out of any AFV in WW2.

T34-76 shouldn't be listed in a poll of "best tank killers" in my opinion, it simply doesn't fit its role. Not enough crew training, no hatch for the commander, no radio, bad gun sights,
bad turret sights, vulnerable to any German Panzer higher than Mark III. Heck, in most cases, even the inferior Panzer III L had more victories over the T34-76, simply due to better crew training, better gun sights, and superior tactics in general.
Its only adventage was its numbers, and that's what it was good for.
 
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Ferdinand was the most capable AT gun. Only 89 present at Kursk.
July to October 1943. Credited with killing 502 Soviet tanks and 100 other vehicles.
50 surviving Ferdinands returned for factory overhaul during October 1943.

Most capable all around tank was undoubtedly the Tiger I. Firepower, armor and mobility. The Tiger had it all in a single expensive package.

IMO StuG III SP assault gun deserves more respect then it normally gets. Firepower, armor and mobility were excellent and it cost 1/3rd the price of Tiger I. Relatively light weight also made it easy to transport.

Sd.Kfz.251 was the best APC.

Sd.Kfz.250 was probably the best all around recon vehicle.

July 1943 Soviets were still using same equipment as June 1941 so it's no surprise their vehicles don't rate highly. A year later things would be different. 1944 T-34 tank received a badly needed firepower increase and KV1 replaced with Stalin series tanks.
 
@davebender

You are missing some facts there. The sPzJagAbt 656 destroyed 502 vehicles alone, but you are forgetting about the sPzJagAbt 653, which again terminated another 320 vehicles,
making it a total of 800 vehicles destructed by all Ferdinands.

By the way, saying it was un-effective because of the lack of a machine gun, is unjustified, because it was a tank destroyer afterall and it got its job better done than any other TD in the WW2.
To say it was "vulnerable" to infantry is kind of redundant, because any AFV was just as vulenrable to infantry anyway.
How many Tigers and Panthers were destroyed by infantry with piats, bazookas, RPG's etc, and yet they DID have machien guns? Having a machine gun, doesn't make you somehow invulnerable.
How could anybody even think the Russians would swarm german tanks with hordes of infantry? Are you people out of your mind?
That has got to be the dumbest argument I ever heard of. It's not like the Russians were so desperate they used Kamikaze tactics to kill german armor....
I don't think the Russians even knew that Ferdinands didn't have a machine gun. Do you really think the Russian generals gave the soldiers the order to climb on any German tank they were close to?
Russian infantry hid in trenches, in devensive position. They wouldn't just run straight off towards German armor, as if their lifes had no value. That's outrageous.
Also don't forget that Ferdinands operated far away from enemy lines.
Remember, these were sniper tanks, they stayed at large distance to snipe russian tanks from long range. Russian infantry wouldn't even get the chance to get close to them.
 
Well, I can not argue that it was the "best", but the Ferdinand was definitely the most successful tank destroyer of this time period, and probably in the whole WW2.
In total only 90 Ferdianands destroyed some 800 soviet AFV's, at a cost of only 13 own losses by sPzJagAbt 656 and a few more unknown losses by sPzJagAbt 653 (of which most were disabled by mines or
mechanical breakdown rather than by enemy fire). The Ferdinand's were almost immortal to any Soviet gun.
Almost no Soviet tank or anti tank gun was capable of penetrating its armor at medium to long range, except only a very few anti tank guns such as the ZIS-3, SU-76 SPG and of course the 152mm gun of the SU-152.
But regular Russian tanks such as T34 or KV1 had no effective gun to penetrate even the side or rear armor, so it's obvious that none Ferdinand was ever destroyed by a T34 or KV1 tank.
Without any doubt, one or another was knocked out by SU-152's, as this was the only effective weapon to counter it at medium to long range.
Some Russian soruces however try to exaggerate the numbers of Ferdinand killed by SU-152, which is mostly ridiculous far fetched propaganda.

The Tiger was a less successful tank killer in relation to kills per losses, however it was still more successfull overall because there were more Tigers deployed, which means they had a greater impact overall. Like the Ferdinand, it had the best allround protection and survivability on the battlefield, which allowed it survive many hits from Sovoet tank guns and score numerous kills, before getting destroyed or disabled by enemy fire. It was nearly immortal from the front, only the side hull armor could be penetrated by T34 and KV if they came close as 100 meters. But only rarely got Russian tanks the chance to get this close to a Tiger on open terrain. Again, the only effective weapons to counter the Tiger were ZIS-3, SU-76, SU-122 and SU-152.

The Panter was also a good tank killer overall, but only in relation to its own numbers. A single Panther alone however wasn't that effective because it lacked the good allround protection of the Tiger.
Having very vulnerable side and rear armor, it didn't have this superb survivabilty that the Tiger and Ferdinand had. Most Panthers were easilly destroyed by flank hits even at long range.
Even the T34 and KV1 could already penetrate its weak side armor at over a kilometer. Which is why there are at least 10 Tiger aces credited with over 100 tank kills, but not a single Panther ace credited with 100 tank kills.
(the highest scoring Panther ace achieved "only" 60 tank kills).

KV-1 was only effective against early German Panzers like Mark II and III, and only at close to medium range. But against even a Panzer IV F2 it was already inferior.
Not even to mention the bad accuracy of its tiny gun. It was maybe a fearsome beast back in 1941/42 but in 1943 it wasn't that good anymore.
Although there were a few instances where KV1 crews achived some impressive victories in 1942, but they fought only against light German tanks with automatic machine guns. Not that impressive, is it?

The StuG's were good tank killers too, but again only in respect to their numbers. A single StuG alone isn't that impressive,
Although It did have a very good front armor that made it invulnerable against early T34 and KV1 guns. Since it's the most produced German AFV in WW2, it claims the most tank kills out of any AFV in WW2.

T34-76 shouldn't be listed in a poll of "best tank killers" in my opinion, it simply doesn't fit its role. Not enough crew training, no hatch for the commander, no radio, bad gun sights,
bad turret sights, vulnerable to any German Panzer higher than Mark III. Heck, in most cases, even the inferior Panzer III L had more victories over the T34-76, simply due to better crew training, better gun sights, and superior tactics in general.
Its only adventage was its numbers, and that's what it was good for.

The poll is not about the "best tank killer", but about the best tank or the best tank killer, or, as stated in the title, about "The best AFV in the Kursk bulge 1943". If the tank cannot fight and move couple of hundreds of kilometers in one day, just how good is that tank? We need to remember that outcome of Kursk battle was, for Germans, about advance, cutting off the Soviet units in the bulge and destroy what's in the resulting cauldron. It was NOT about leisurely sniping out unfortunate T-34s.
Neither three heavy German 'animals' were not participate well in the 'keil und kessel' battle in 1943, Panther being the worst of them back then. Then we have Pz-III and -IV, two reliable workhorses. Unfortunately for Germans, Soviet artillery from long 45mm up to 152mm howitzers was more than capable for harm those. And the amount of entrenched Soviet artillery was unbelievable. My favourite German AFV, the StuG-III, was excellent on defense, but not so much on offense.
German problem was that they were trying to out-slug the Soviets, neglecting the fact that all of their previous victories were the outcome of successful out-maneuvering the adversary. Not only vs. Soviets, but against any adversary in 20th century.
Contrary to German best, the T-34s have had no problems to participate in hot pursuit after the battle. Soviets knew just too well that tanks were targets of many anti tank means, so they tried to churn out as many of useful tanks, in order to win battles. They were not bothered by one-on-one showdowns, but were also developing ever better tanks that would be also reliable and 'producible'.
BTW, the 76mm, be it in AFV or towed form, was a loosing ticket vs. Tiger. One needs 57mm ZiS-2, 76mm AA, 85mm AA or something bigger to kill it. Best would be the 122mm cannon, plenty of those during Kursk were around. Also, the quality of the crew has nothing to do with tank's quality.
 
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Neither three heavy German 'animals' were not participate well in the 'keil und kessel' battle in 1943
Soviets had superior numbers and plenty of time to dig in yet the casualty count still favored Germany by a wide margin. German army was still advancing and winning at Kursk when Hitler halted the offensive and transferred some of the best units to Italy.

How can anyone claim German armor or German army in general did not perform well?
 
There is no doubt that Germans were advancing, their advance in northern sector being halted couple of days before than it was halted in southern sector. The point was that Soviets have had numerous reserves to comit into battle, while the Germans were short in that. Plus, the Soviets have had launched Operation Kutuzov, just north on the northern part of the bulge, BEFORE Hitler canceled the Citadelle. Germans have struggled to forestall that advance, at the end they extracted a high toll at Soviet tanks there, but loosing the area between Orel and Bryansk.

Nobody claims that German armor or German army in general did not perform well.
 
I cant believe the OP has the Panzer III but didnt include the Stug III in the poll:?:, unless thats what Panzer ausf. G is supposed to represent.

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stugIII_23.jpg

stug3gpicasso.jpg


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