There is no evidence whatsoever to support the assertion German troops called the IL-2M "Black Death". The silly nickname was surely the direct consequence of an efficient bolshevik propaganda job.
"Black Death"? Dying or getting killed in a war is, per se, something "black" enough in my view. For some odd reason the bolsheviks seemed to believe dying due to IL-2M attack should be "blacker" than dying, say, due to an artillery barrage or the rifle fired by a young guy herded from Kyrgyzstan to the front.
The top speed of the IL-2Ms and Stukas was nearly identical by the way...and do not forget the Stuka had a non-retractable landing gear which added to the drag factor.
Also on the viewpoint suggesting the Stuka became an obsolete ship as the war progressed...i do not think i will ever understand the notion.
I´ve said this before: following the same logic then the B-17s and B-24s are "obsolete" when one assesses their losses prior to the arrival of the long range escorts. Different types of planes, sure: one is a dive bomber designed to provide direct support to advancing army forces while the other two are level bombers.
I do not have the numbers at hand, but i once compared % of losses of B-24s/B-17s endured prior to the arrival of the proper escorts vs those of Stukas and it was clear the Stukas fared better in this department.
Bill, the Stuka remained operational throughout the entire war in the Eastern Front due to the very simple reason the VVS did never attained the type of resurgence depicted on bolshevik and western allied accounts. It´s pure mythology. You have to believe me.
Yup, that the soviets continued producing large number of planes during the whole war is completely true, but the human factor represented their main problem: they never recovered from the hammer delivered by the Luftwaffe during 1941 and 1942, nor had the timeframe and springboard to produce pilots with adequate training. They went through emergency after emergency, even if such emergencies were of different nature during the several phases of the war in the east.
From June 22nd 1941 until the end of the 6th Army in Stalingrad, it was mainly and mostly about survival, with some of the most crushing and horrifiying losses of men and material in the history of wars. Keyword here: SURVIVAL.
The first half of 1943 was a time when nobody could yet be sure of the outcome in the east; the Wehrmacht was far from being defeated, so the survival issue could not yet be erased from the soviet list of critical issues when the soviets were now confronted with a new emergency: the western allies had landed in North Africa (late 1942)...an emergency of political nature.
The political emergency in Moscow became increasingly critical in the same year: when the battle of Kursk was raging (summer 1943) the western allies landed in Sicily. Also there was the allied build up in southern England to launch Overlord.
During 1944, when the soviets launched "Bagration", and after its succesful termination -enduring losses as catastrophic as those of the Germans during such operation- they could finally remove the survival issue from their lists of concerns, but the political one remained critical and would only worsen.
The western allies had successfully landed in Normandy and were steadly advancing toward Germany. So the soviet command was hard pressed to advance as fast as possible using all material and human resources at their disposal.
They never had the time to properly train their pilots!
The Pokryshkins and their lucky pupils made very rare exceptions.
If for some bizarre reason the build up of the 8th and 15th Air Forces had occurred in the Eastern Front and not in England, then the Stuka would have been withdrawn from service in the sector.
Finally, the efforts to detect "obsolete" equipment is focused on Germany, the defeated guys, but let´s not forget the RAF still had Hurricane squadrons in operations as late as in mid 1944...as a fighter and during 1944, the Hurricane could surely be tagged as obsolete since it would be no match against any of the contemporary German fighters.
The Stuka was never obsolete; i think of this scenario where air-superiority is not attained by the USAAF and RAF in the West, and they still go for Overlord...there are sufficient numbers of German fighters in Normandy to either escort Stukas on mission or to at least tangle with swarms of Allied fighters, then you´d have Stukas screaming on Omaha, Juno, Gold or Sword with perhaps a devasating effect.
"Black Death"? Dying or getting killed in a war is, per se, something "black" enough in my view. For some odd reason the bolsheviks seemed to believe dying due to IL-2M attack should be "blacker" than dying, say, due to an artillery barrage or the rifle fired by a young guy herded from Kyrgyzstan to the front.
The top speed of the IL-2Ms and Stukas was nearly identical by the way...and do not forget the Stuka had a non-retractable landing gear which added to the drag factor.
Also on the viewpoint suggesting the Stuka became an obsolete ship as the war progressed...i do not think i will ever understand the notion.
I´ve said this before: following the same logic then the B-17s and B-24s are "obsolete" when one assesses their losses prior to the arrival of the long range escorts. Different types of planes, sure: one is a dive bomber designed to provide direct support to advancing army forces while the other two are level bombers.
I do not have the numbers at hand, but i once compared % of losses of B-24s/B-17s endured prior to the arrival of the proper escorts vs those of Stukas and it was clear the Stukas fared better in this department.
Bill, the Stuka remained operational throughout the entire war in the Eastern Front due to the very simple reason the VVS did never attained the type of resurgence depicted on bolshevik and western allied accounts. It´s pure mythology. You have to believe me.
Yup, that the soviets continued producing large number of planes during the whole war is completely true, but the human factor represented their main problem: they never recovered from the hammer delivered by the Luftwaffe during 1941 and 1942, nor had the timeframe and springboard to produce pilots with adequate training. They went through emergency after emergency, even if such emergencies were of different nature during the several phases of the war in the east.
From June 22nd 1941 until the end of the 6th Army in Stalingrad, it was mainly and mostly about survival, with some of the most crushing and horrifiying losses of men and material in the history of wars. Keyword here: SURVIVAL.
The first half of 1943 was a time when nobody could yet be sure of the outcome in the east; the Wehrmacht was far from being defeated, so the survival issue could not yet be erased from the soviet list of critical issues when the soviets were now confronted with a new emergency: the western allies had landed in North Africa (late 1942)...an emergency of political nature.
The political emergency in Moscow became increasingly critical in the same year: when the battle of Kursk was raging (summer 1943) the western allies landed in Sicily. Also there was the allied build up in southern England to launch Overlord.
During 1944, when the soviets launched "Bagration", and after its succesful termination -enduring losses as catastrophic as those of the Germans during such operation- they could finally remove the survival issue from their lists of concerns, but the political one remained critical and would only worsen.
The western allies had successfully landed in Normandy and were steadly advancing toward Germany. So the soviet command was hard pressed to advance as fast as possible using all material and human resources at their disposal.
They never had the time to properly train their pilots!
The Pokryshkins and their lucky pupils made very rare exceptions.
If for some bizarre reason the build up of the 8th and 15th Air Forces had occurred in the Eastern Front and not in England, then the Stuka would have been withdrawn from service in the sector.
Finally, the efforts to detect "obsolete" equipment is focused on Germany, the defeated guys, but let´s not forget the RAF still had Hurricane squadrons in operations as late as in mid 1944...as a fighter and during 1944, the Hurricane could surely be tagged as obsolete since it would be no match against any of the contemporary German fighters.
The Stuka was never obsolete; i think of this scenario where air-superiority is not attained by the USAAF and RAF in the West, and they still go for Overlord...there are sufficient numbers of German fighters in Normandy to either escort Stukas on mission or to at least tangle with swarms of Allied fighters, then you´d have Stukas screaming on Omaha, Juno, Gold or Sword with perhaps a devasating effect.
hey what about the p-61 that the Russians used to destroy german armor? Doesn't that deserve mention, despite it's sluggish speed? it had a cannon in the prop.
