The Fantastic Accuracy Of Otto Fönnekold’s Victory Claims

[CHen10]

Then why do you yourself yet AGAIN add Hartmann to your list and yet AGAIN post your 43% number?

Do you have problems reading? This is what I said

And no, Hartmann is not "my eventual target". This thread is about Fönnekold not Hartmann. I only mentioned Hartmann to give some context of other pilots. I didn't just mention Hartmann I also mentioned other pilots of JG52.

I briefly mentioned Hartmann to give context. Simple as that. Briefly mentioning Hartmann is not changing the focus to Hartmann. You are the one who keeps trying to have Hartmann brought up by replying in the way you did. I also mentioned other JG52 pilots and you ignored me mentioning them. Funny isn't it? You have the fixation on Hartmann not me.

This has now been debated in this forum ad nauseam: You hold the Soviet records to be gospel truth and as some sort of measuring stock against which everything can be measured while many of us here don't think they are worth the paper they are written on. We simply have different opinions capisce?

Yeah and you are wrong. This is not opinion based. You are simply wrong and live in a fantasy world, and that's fine but don't try and say your fantasy is real.

Sensible people here know how good the Soviet records are and I never once started talking about how great they are because there was no need. You are making things up because you have nothing genuine to say.

You starting new threads repeating the same arguments again and again and telling us it's us and not you who live in a fantasy won't change that. Just accept that and spare us your incessant beating of this by now long dead horse.

Again, sensible people here know how good the Soviet records are and I never once started talking about how great they are because there was no need.

I only replied to point out the hypocrisy of you lecturing others to keep this about Fönnekold when you can't even do that yourself.

No it was you and the other guy who tried to make this about Hartmann.

Finally

I have to defend the researchers who discovered the truth and defend their research.

So sit down, be humble and don't talk like that to the real experts of WW2 air combat research who worked really hard to discover the truth.

And with that I'll go back to ignoring this thread just as it deserves.

Good riddance

 

[Dimlee]

Sigh...

 

[CHen10]

Fonnekold's early career

(I removed the text that I copied here because it's better to read the whole article)

Otto Fönnekold - as z nad Kerczu. Cz. I - Magnum-x

Oficjalne wojenne konto zwycięstw powietrznych porucznika Ottona Fönnekolda wskazuje 137 zestrzeleń. Obecnie możliwa weryfikacja niemieckich zwycięstw w stratach lotnictwa …

www.magnum-x.pl

 

[CHen10]

I will definitely order this book.

When you get the book, I would love to hear what you think of it. Do you mind if you tell me what you think?

 

[bf109xxl]

Fonnekold's early career

(I removed the text that I copied here because it's better to read the whole article)

Otto Fönnekold - as z nad Kerczu. Cz. I - Magnum-x

Oficjalne wojenne konto zwycięstw powietrznych porucznika Ottona Fönnekolda wskazuje 137 zestrzeleń. Obecnie możliwa weryfikacja niemieckich zwycięstw w stratach lotnictwa …

www.magnum-x.pl

Thanks for the links! Now I'm reading the full versions of both parts of the article in Lotnictwo magazine (issues 4-5,6/2020). An excellent publication, at first glance - I haven't finished reading it yet.

 

[bf109xxl]

When you get the book, I would love to hear what you think of it. Do you mind if you tell me what you think?

Yes, of course. The book will arrive in a week, I can read it in two weeks when I get back from vacation.
It seems that Lavrinenko's Russian-language publications have a different emphasis, although I think he tries to remain objective as much as possible, even taking into account the present situation with censorship (not necessarily state one) in Russia.

 

[CHen10]

Thanks for the links! Now I'm reading the full versions of both parts of the article in Lotnictwo magazine (issues 4-5,6/2020). An excellent publication, at first glance - I haven't finished reading it yet.

Have you bought the whole magazine?

 

[CHen10]

More images of Fönnekold

 

[Dimlee]

Yes, of course. The book will arrive in a week, I can read it in two weeks when I get back from vacation.
It seems that Lavrinenko's Russian-language publications have a different emphasis, although I think he tries to remain objective as much as possible, even taking into account the present situation with censorship (not necessarily state one) in Russia.

Lavrinenko is OK. After reading his articles, I can say that he is one of the few who remained almost untouched by self-censorship.

 

[rochie]

locked this thread as the first wisps of a flame war have started.

those that wish to can read what has already been posted and make their own minds up.

 

[rochie]

i've unlocked this thread for now.

lets keep this civil if it is to remain open.

CHen10 it might be best to make your points without using Hartmann to prove a point.

Holtzauge please stop taking any reference to Hartmann personally

 

[CHen10]

Lavrinenko is OK. After reading his articles, I can say that he is one of the few who remained almost untouched by self-censorship.

That is very admirable. It's about the facts seeing the light.

 

[Luft.4]

The book in question is great, a larger sample of pilots is present on page 156.
Just like in Verified Victories, you have to go to the losses to understand claiming accuracy. Claiming accuracy of the sample is even lower than in Verified Victories and goes to show that reported claims and real victories are two different things.
Two different and independent data points validating the presence of high over claiming.
Again, from the date we can clearly see that the highest accuracy is not exclusive to the highest claimers. Rather many of the lesser known fighter pilots lead with the highest accuracy.

Dan.

 

[CHen10]

Again, from the date we can clearly see that the highest accuracy is not exclusive to the highest claimers. Rather many of the lesser known fighter pilots lead with the highest accuracy.

Fönnekold, Lipfert and Wolfrum come to mind

Although many famous aces were good as well:

For example, Barkhorn, Rall, Bär, Mölders and the probable highest ace of all time:

OTTO KITTEL

 

[bf109xxl]

I've almost finished the book. It is definitely an extremely interesting and very detailed study.
Some criticism of the book can be found at the link. I quite agree with the most remarks. However, only the lack of detailed verification of Soviet pilots' claims can be considered as a fundamental flaw. This could be explained by the authors' focus on Luftwaffe experts, but the book largely describes the operations of the Soviet VVS and contains numerous comparisons. If the author(s) had aimed solely at verifying the claims of Luftwaffe pilots, this complaint would not have arisen. On the other hand, the book would be less interesting to the audience. In addition, I think that the critic does not take into account situation in Russia nowaday, where questioning Soviet propaganda can have serious consequences for a historian (usually any attempt of unbiased critical analysis is declared as "revisionism"). Nevertheless, the authors implicitly make it clear that the overclaiming rate of Soviet pilots was very high, being very critical of Soviet claims. Hopefully, the authors' next publications will provide a detailed analysis of Soviet claims as well.
I was surprised by numerous translation inaccuracies - for one of the authors German is clearly his native language, but the text is largely a template translation from Russian. It is possible to understand the meaning, of course, but the approach itself can hardly be called optimal.

Summary:

• the book provides a very detailed view of the air war over the Kerch Peninsula during the Battle of the Crimea from the fall of 1943 to the spring of 1944;
• most Soviet aircraft were shot down by a relatively small number of the Luftwaffe "experts";
• the claims of some Luftwaffe aces were verified, the overclaim rate turned out to be rather surprisingly low (at least for the Eastern Front);
• an analysis of the reasons for the low efficiency of the Soviet Air Force was performed;
• some insignificant but still interesting facts like the use of the I-153 over Kerch in 1944 can be noted.

Despite all the shortcomings the book represents a serious historical study, and I hope it will be appreciated by its audience.

 

[CHen10]

I've almost finished the book. It is definitely an extremely interesting and very detailed study.
Some criticism of the book can be found at the link. I quite agree with the most remarks. However, only the lack of detailed verification of Soviet pilots' claims can be considered as a fundamental flaw. This could be explained by the authors' focus on Luftwaffe experts, but the book largely describes the operations of the Soviet VVS and contains numerous comparisons. If the author(s) had aimed solely at verifying the claims of Luftwaffe pilots, this complaint would not have arisen. On the other hand, the book would be less interesting to the audience. In addition, I think that the critic does not take into account situation in Russia nowaday, where questioning Soviet propaganda can have serious consequences for a historian (usually any attempt of unbiased critical analysis is declared as "revisionism"). Nevertheless, the authors implicitly make it clear that the overclaiming rate of Soviet pilots was very high, being very critical of Soviet claims. Hopefully, the authors' next publications will provide a detailed analysis of Soviet claims as well.
I was surprised by numerous translation inaccuracies - for one of the authors German is clearly his native language, but the text is largely a template translation from Russian. It is possible to understand the meaning, of course, but the approach itself can hardly be called optimal.

Summary:

• the book provides a very detailed view of the air war over the Kerch Peninsula during the Battle of the Crimea from the fall of 1943 to the spring of 1944;
• most Soviet aircraft were shot down by a relatively small number of the Luftwaffe "experts";
• the claims of some Luftwaffe aces were verified, the overclaim rate turned out to be rather surprisingly low (at least for the Eastern Front);
• an analysis of the reasons for the low efficiency of the Soviet Air Force was performed;
• some insignificant but still interesting facts like the use of the I-153 over Kerch in 1944 can be noted.

Despite all the shortcomings the book represents a serious historical study, and I hope it will be appreciated by its audience.

Glad to hear it! Hopefully people will appreciate it like you say.