The first real jet engine

[Duske]

Sir Whittle and the German Franz von Oheim did develop the first so called jet engine but which did not lead us into the jet age at all.

No airliner of today is using the radial jet engine of Whittle and von Oheim !

Both developed the radial jet engine at the same time by not knowing of each other. After WW 2 both became friend.

At the end the radial one was no more increaseable in power - due to it`s single compressor. The only compressor had to be huge so we received the wide-body jet engine of

the Meteor and the MIG 15. The MIG 17 could increase speed only by using the first afterburner - disigned by the Junkers Factory/Germany in 1944.

The start of the real jet age: It began in 1939 in Germany. The BRAMO-Factory near Berlin producing the Siemens-Radial engine since long for light aircraft.

was forced into the production of a very new jet engine, as BMW and Junckers too, the axial jet engine. The one which drives every airliner of today. It is called the straight-air-through jet engine. While the radial one of Whittle and von Oheim was just a try - no more. By having captured the first Me 262 in 1945 Rollce Royce

stopped the production of the radial one immediately - and did copy further on the German axial jet engine. At least it`s proved by historian.



Reason of all till the change to the axial jet engine of today: Willy Messerschmitt was the founder of the real jet engine of today as he needed for his Me 262 a narrow jet engine with a diameter of no more then 60 cm. The wide body radial engine of Franz von Oheim would not fit under the wings of his Me 262.

BRAMO (Brandenburgische Motorenwerke) agreed by designing a 12 stage compressor to the front of the burning chambers. The axial jet engine was born and is still in the

use of every todays airliner. Rolls-Royce and Russia had to increase the compressor diameter only for getting a more powerful engine - reaching Mach 2 and more.

 

[wuzak]

What a load of utter tripe.

• A.A.Griffith wrote a paper, An Aerodynamic Theory of Turbine Design, on using aerodynamic principals for the design of an axial compressor in 1926
• The late 1920s and early 1930s A.A.Griffith did research into multi-stage axial compressors, including a counter rotating compressor design
• In the mid 1930s Metropolitian Vickers, a steam turbine manufacturer, began design of a turboprop based on a compressor designed by A.A.Griffith
• After the early testing success of the Whittle engine, Metrovicks redesigned their engine to become a pure jet.
• In 1939 A.A. Griffith joined Rolls-Royce to work on axial flow jets
• In 1941 Armstrong-Siddeley were instructed to abandon the Deerhound, and larger planned derivatives, and instead concentrate on the design of an axial flow jet
• The Metrovicks F2 (second pure jet engine) first ran in November 1941. It was a year later than the BMW 003 and Jumo 004 in running, but was significantly more powerful at that stage of development. Initial thrust was more than the thrust of the production BMW 003 or Jumo 004.
• The Metrovicks F1 flew in 1943 slung under a Lancaster. The F2 flew in a prototype Meteor in November 1943.
• The Armstrong Siddeley ASX ran for the first time in 1943. This series of engines would be abandoned after the war and the company took over the development of the F9 Sapphire from Metrovicks.
• The Jumo 004 was not designed to fit under the Me 262. The Me 262 was designed around two Jumo 004s.

 

[Peter Gunn]

How many times are you going to start this thread of bovine fecal matter?

 

[Duske]

Why then was the first Jet equiped with the Whittle radial so week that it could hardly carry on ammunition ?
The BMW 003 and Jumo 004 were the first functinonal axial Jet engines ever - designed by BRAMO.
Gerhard Neumann called "Herrman the German" worked with BRAMO and later on became the director of General-Electric as he developed the J 79
mainly. Can`t see any British within this game.

Why did Rollce-Royce change production of the Whittle one in 1945 by having copyed the German axial one? Just guess ! We are talking only about who was the first and not about what others had within their paper-work before.

 

[Duske]

Looks like that you know much better than every historian. At least many US-Aviation Expert did agree into my Explanation.

 

[wuzak]

The Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire was a direct development of the Metroviks F2 that was started ~1940. It was produced under licence by Wright as the J65.

The Rolls-Royce Avon started development in 1945, under Sir Stanley Hooker, based on design concepts by A.A. Griffith. It was produced under licence in Sweden and a scaled down version was made by Westinghouse in the US.

The Soviets did pick up jet technology from Germany after the war, but I believe they were the more advanced concepts rather than the BMW 003 and Jumo 004.

 

[buffnut453]

Why then was the first Jet equiped with the Whittle radial so week that it could hardly carry on ammunition ?

Because the E.28/39 was specifically ordered as a test aircraft for the Whittle engine. It was never intended to be an operational combat aircraft, as evidence by the lack of a radio or any form of cockpit heating. Yes, drawings exist showing how guns "might" be installed but those ideas came later and were never seriously considered. It was a testbed airframe, nothing more.

Note that the first operational RAF jet aircraft, the Meteor, had 2 Whittle engines, just as the Me262 had 2 Jumo/BMW engines.

 

[Shortround6]

An early version was running in 1941.

first flew on 13 November 1943 powered by early versions of the above engine.

US Westinghouse engine, design started in 1942 and first engines delivered to the Navy in 1944. Too small to power manned aircraft.

That is just two projects that had nothing to do with German designs.
Sorry but any "historian" who claims that modern jet engines are descended from German roots only should find another field to work in.
One where it is harder to check up on "made up facts".

 

[tomo pauk]

Why then was the first Jet equiped with the Whittle radial so week that it could hardly carry on ammunition ?
The BMW 003 and Jumo 004 were the first functinonal axial Jet engines ever - designed by BRAMO.
Gerhard Neumann called "Herrman the German" worked with BRAMO and later on became the director of General-Electric as he developed the J 79
mainly. Can`t see any British within this game.

The He 178 didn't carry any guns or ammo. Guess we can discount it from any discussion about jet aircraft?
Simple thing of sticking black crosses on fuselage and wings would've done miracles for both early jets.

Why did Rollce-Royce change production of the Whittle one in 1945 by having copyed the German axial one? Just guess ! We are talking only about who was the first and not about what others had within their paper-work before.

(my bold)
Giving orders already?

 

[tomo pauk]

Looks like that you know much better than every historian. At least many US-Aviation Expert did agree into my Explanation.

Says who?

 

[Shortround6]

Hmmmm,

Heinkel 178, where are the guns???????
The Gloster first flew on May 15st 1941
first flight of Me 262 with jet engines was July 18th 1942.
Not sure first prototypes had guns either, the one with Jumo piston engine in the nose sure didn't

 

[Marcel]

What's this? 2 exactly the same threads?

I merged the threads because the starter posts were exactly the same.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Why then was the first Jet equiped with the Whittle radial so week that it could hardly carry on ammunition ?
The BMW 003 and Jumo 004 were the first functinonal axial Jet engines ever - designed by BRAMO.
Gerhard Neumann called "Herrman the German" worked with BRAMO and later on became the director of General-Electric as he developed the J 79
mainly. Can`t see any British within this game.

Why did Rollce-Royce change production of the Whittle one in 1945 by having copyed the German axial one? Just guess ! We are talking only about who was the first and not about what others had within their paper-work before.

Wait, what now?

Am I misreading this or are you saying the British weren't in on jet engine development?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Tails Through Time: The L-1000: Lockheed's Own Jet Engine

"Probably one of the most obscure yet fascinating episodes in the history of jet engine development stemmed from Lockheed's innovative jet-powered L-133 fighter design that was submitted to the USAAF in March 1942. While the fighter design boasted advanced features like a canard and a blended wing-body, the Army Air Forces were more interested in the proposed engines of the L-133 which were to be two axial-flow jet engines designed by Lockheed itself designated L-1000. The engine had a multi-stage turbine to increase compression which translated into a greater thrust output. At a meeting at Wright Field in Dayton (where the USAAF's Power Plant Laboratory was located) in August 1942, military researchers and Lockheed engineers reviewed the L-1000's design- it was only 24 inches in diameter, 139 inches long, and weighed 1,235 lbs. Lockheed estimated that at full takeoff thrust, the L-1000 could develop 6,700 lbs of thrust. Despite the reservations of the Power Plant Laboratory, they felt there were enough features in Lockheed's jet engine that had potential that made it worth funding further development.

By comparison, that same year General Electric was working on their version of Frank Whittle's British W.1X centrifugal flow engine. GE first ran their I-A (which would later be designated the J31) on 18 April 1942, making it the first jet engine to operate in the US. It was 41.5 inches in diameter, 72 inches long, and weighed 865 lbs. At full thrust it developed only 1,250 lbs of thrust. At the time, Allied jet development had been focused primarily on centrifugal flow jets as that was the what was furthest along in terms of engineering and development compared to axial flow jets. The only other axial flow jet in development in 1942 was the Junkers Jumo 004 in Germany. It was already at the flight hardware stage that year and it was 152 inches long, 32 inches in diameter, weighed approximately 1,600 lbs and the early versions then being tested developed just under 2,000 lbs of thrust.

By comparison to the working jet engines of the day, the Lockheed L-1000 engine would have been quite a leap in performance in an axial flow engine that was smaller than the Jumo 004. Despite the potential, some officials in the USAAF were less than pleased with the idea of an airframe manufacturer developing its own jet engine, even though Northrop at the time was working on its own Turbodyne turboprop engine for its flying wing bomber designs. It was felt that airframe manufacturers lacked the expertise and facilities for the development, testing and production of jet engines.

Regardless of the objections of some officials in the USAAF, a contract was finally signed with Lockheed for good (there had been some dispute over intellectual property rights) on 31 July 1944 for approximately $1.2 million. A year later, Lockheed requested a one year extension as the pressures of wartime production had left it without sufficient engineering resources to devote to the L-1000, just as some in the military had predicted a few years earlier. As a result, Lockheed subcontracted 60% of the project to the Menasco Manufacturing Company. The Army acquiesced to this arrangement as long as Lockheed remained ultimately responsible for the engine. Menasco was allowed to manufacture the engine but under Lockheed's own engine patents. In the summer of 1946, the USAAF appropriated an additional $1.9 million to the L-1000 project by which time it would receive the designation J37. Lockheed assured the USAAF that production could begin as early as 1947.

Initial delays were due to manufacturing pressures at Menasco which was providing high-precision parts to the aircraft manufacturers of Southern California including Douglas, Convair, as well as Lockheed for the war effort. But with the cancellation of a good number of military production contracts with the Japanese surrender, Menasco was able to devote additional resources to the J37 project. Despite this, however, progress remained slow with the USAAF steadily losing patience with Lockheed. In late 1946, the J37 project was handed off to Wright Aeronautical Corporation, but by that time, Wright was more interested in its own developments and the GE/Allison J33 engine that was developed from Whittle's designs was a proven and mature powerplant already powering the Lockheed P-80 (later redesignated F-80) Shooting Star fighter.

The GE/Allison J35 engine would be the first axial-flow jet engine for the USAF and it had already made its first flight powering the Republic P-84/F-84 Thunderjet in February 1946 and would eclipse the centrifugal flow J33 engine in its performance. And even more powerful and successful development of the J35 was already being tested that year, the J47 engine. Lockheed quietly abandoned its efforts in developing a powerplant and all that exists of the L-1000 today is a mockup at the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, California."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"Sir Whittle and the German Franz von Oheim did develop the first so called jet engine but which did not lead us into the jet age at all."

Rubbish -

Centrifugal compressor configuration turbines were not only produced well after WW2 but were the make up of many powerplants that powered HELICOPTERS. The axial flow compressor was also acknowledged well before WW2.

From Wiki

Early axial compressors offered poor efficiency, so poor that in the early 1920s a number of papers claimed that a practical jet engine would be impossible to construct. Things changed after A. A. Griffith published a seminal paper in 1926, noting that the reason for the poor performance was that existing compressors used flat blades and were essentially "flying stalled". He showed that the use of airfoils instead of the flat blades would increase efficiency to the point where a practical jet engine was a real possibility. He concluded the paper with a basic diagram of such an engine, which included a second turbine that was used to power a propeller.

Although Griffith was well known due to his earlier work on metal fatigue and stress measurement, little work appears to have started as a direct result of his paper. The only obvious effort was a test-bed compressor built by Hayne Constant, Griffith's colleague at the Royal Aircraft Establishment. Other early jet efforts, notably those of Frank Whittle and Hans von Ohain, were based on the more robust and better understood centrifugal compressor which was widely used in superchargers. Griffith had seen Whittle's work in 1929 and dismissed it, noting a mathematical error, and going on to claim that the frontal size of the engine would make it useless on a high-speed aircraft.

Real work on axial-flow engines started in the late 1930s, in several efforts that all started at about the same time. In England, Hayne Constant reached an agreement with the steam turbine company Metropolitan-Vickers (Metrovick) in 1937, starting their turboprop effort based on the Griffith design in 1938. In 1940, after the successful run of Whittle's centrifugal-flow design, their effort was re-designed as a pure jet, the Metrovick F.2. In Germany, von Ohain had produced several working centrifugal engines, some of which had flown including the world's first jet aircraft (He 178), but development efforts had moved on to Junkers (Jumo 004) and BMW (BMW 003), which used axial-flow designs in the world's first jet fighter (Messerschmitt Me 262) and jet bomber (Arado Ar 234). In the United States, both Lockheed and General Electric were awarded contracts in 1941 to develop axial-flow engines, the former a pure jet, the latter a turboprop. Northrop also started their own project to develop a turboprop, which the US Navy eventually contracted in 1943. Westinghousealso entered the race in 1942, their project proving to be the only successful one of the US efforts, later becoming the J30.

As Griffith had originally noted in 1929, the large frontal size of the centrifugal compressor caused it to have higher drag than the narrower axial-flow type. Additionally the axial-flow design could improve its compression ratio simply by adding additional stages and making the engine slightly longer. In the centrifugal-flow design the compressor itself had to be larger in diameter, which was much more difficult to "fit" properly on the aircraft. On the other hand, centrifugal-flow designs remained much less complex (the major reason they "won" in the race to flying examples) and therefore have a role in places where size and streamlining are not so important. For this reason they remain a major solution for helicopter engines, where the compressor lies flat and can be built to any needed size without upsetting the streamlining to any great degree.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Lockheed L-133 - Wikipedia

Superb design ...

 

[Shortround6]

Lockheed L-133 - Wikipedia

Superb design ...

Lots of things look good on paper but if you can't get it to actually work, or if you can't produce it, then they aren't much good. It depends on what you may be able to apply to other things.

 

[Duske]

The Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire was a direct development of the Metroviks F2 that was started ~1940. It was produced under licence by Wright as the J65.

The Rolls-Royce Avon started development in 1945, under Sir Stanley Hooker, based on design concepts by A.A. Griffith. It was produced under licence in Sweden and a scaled down version was made by Westinghouse in the US.

The Soviets did pick up jet technology from Germany after the war, but I believe they were the more advanced concepts rather than the BMW 003 and Jumo 004.

Sorry for my bad English but I`ll try my best..
The Soviets did capture some Me 262 as more than 1400 units were build. 350 were used in combat. Within the Luftwaffe the Me 262 had a TMO of only 2 hours. (time of overhaul) due to melting compressor shovel blades.There was a great lack of metal ingredients like mangan and kobalt for making the shovels heat resisting. Germany did send U-Boots toward Indonesia were does ingredients could be found on the sea ground. Almost all U-Boots were sunk. This was not known by the Soviets as they tested the Me 262. Many planes crashed. Unable to fix this problem the Soviets did build the Whittle Jet engine in license for the MIG 15. Due to the Whittle one could not reach Mach 1 they connected the first afterburner to that engine, developed by Junkers.
Called then the MIG 17.

The Avon was a copy of the Jumo 004 and BMW 003, no doubt about that as it was done in 1945.
When the British had something equal why then did they send such a week Whittle one into the air ?

A radial Jet engine used within helycopters is not a jet engine we are talking about.
None of your named axial Jet engines reached ever production as you said.

My intension was only finding out who was the first creating the first fully operatinal axial Jet engine. No doubt about that !

 

[FLYBOYJ]

A radial Jet engine used within helycopters is not a jet engine we are talking about.

It is still a centrifugal flow turbine engine produced after WW2.
.
BTW, the Lockheed F-94 had a centrifugal flow engine was was capable of reaching mach 1 in a dive. The MiG-15 couldn't do it due to aerodynamic issues (critical mach number)

No doubt the Germans produced the first practical axial flow turbine engines used in production aircraft, but the Centrifugal engine was still a player until centrifugal engines were made more efficient and reliable and that didn't happen until after WW2

I don't believe the Avon was a copy of any German engine as it was being developed in 1945

 

[Shortround6]

The Germans may have had the first operational jet engine. That does NOT mean that all others were copied from it.
It took 3-6 years to bring an engine (even big piston ones) from initial design to operational use.
Nobody took a captured engine, copied it , and put it into service in a year.

let alone modified one to make 2-4 times the power in one to two years after seeing a captured engine.