Kevin J
Banned
Except its not obsolescent in 1940. 1942 in the ETO, 1943 in the MTO, 1944 in the CBI.
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I think they'd have just been hanging on until the Typhoon got into service. And hoping that worked.
The war prepared for wasn't the one that happened. The UK and France wasn't fighting Germany, the UK was fighting Germany and Italy with France occupied. Then Russia was attacked and Japan joined in. Even though the Hurricane was obsolescent in 1940 it was always better than nothing.
Doing what against what? As I said it was better than nothing.Except its not obsolescent in 1940. 1942 in the ETO, 1943 in the MTO, 1944 in the CBI.
The trouble with a LOT of these cost comparisons is that they never say when or for which contract the cost is for. Many (most/all) planes produced in large numbers were produced in multiple contracts/orders and the price varied with each contract. ALso unknown (or not told by writers ) is what the contract actually covered.
And prices can be all over the place. The US paid $12,872,398.00 for the initial contract for 560 P-40s at $22,929,30 each (note the 30 cents) for a total of $12,480,408.00.
Now 36 of the aircraft were to be delivered as spare parts. Included in the cost of the over all contract wer pats books/catalogs, stress analysis, engineering drawings and other stuff.
Please note the engines were paid for separately.
In Sept of 1940 the Army ordered 131 P-40Bs at a contract price of $33,439 each. About a 50% increase?
The P-40C was supposed to have a contract price of $33,439.71. Now please note that many of the original P-40s were released to the French/British before the Army took delivery and the P-40B & Cs were built to replace them. SO how much did a P-40 cost???????
Then we get to the P-40D, with a Unit cost of $25,0007.56 without GFE.
And then Curtiss billing records show 659 P-40es delivered in 1941 and 171 delivered in 1942 at a unit price of $34,809.
So again, what does a P-40 cost?
Try finding a price for an early Bf 109 when they had 5-7 factories making them.
The comparison is frequently flawed, only discussing the man hours in the factory of "men" in the factory. The NA factories producing the P-51 were similar to car factories, the man hours needed to produce a new factory and equip it are usually left out of the calculation. With the Spitfire Mk 1 it had three production routes, one in Southampton, another dispersed all over SW England and another in a custom built factory in the midlands. Using peace time measures sometimes distorts the discussion. In a case of war when the government wants a factory it gets a factory, with the diggers moving in as soon as the land is surveyed. There is no doubt that the Spitfire was more difficult to produce than a Hurricane or Bf 109, there is also no doubt that no one in UK really cared. They wanted Spitfires and lots of them. The famous marques of the MkV and IX were new engines in old airframes because the short term need over rode long term efficiency and planning. This is common all over the war effort by all sides, where improvements in design were side lined because it meant less aircraft.The difficulty in comparing monetary cost - across time periods, across currency, etc. is one reason "man-hours" is used. Man-hours is a proxy for a more complext "production possibilities frontier" analysis.
Just read the document on man hours. So, that means Bf109, 4000 hrs: Hurricane, 5200 hrs; Spitfire, 13000 hrs. That makes the Hurricane way, way cheaper to procure than a Spitfire, although engines and guns would be similar. So its well worth installing the 2 speed Merlin.
Merlin XX was essential interim step before Spitfire Vc became available.The way forward was the Spitfire, 109 and 190, all three had growth in their design, fitting the Merlin XX in the Hurricane just made an obsolete plane a little less obsolete.
All true or probably true but that wasn't the issue at hand. By 1941 Hurricanes should have been being replaced by Typhoons or Tornados but they weren't so the Hurricane had to be kept in service. Fitting the XX kept it sort of in the game, the RAF would have preferred Typhoons working properly or Spitfires but that wasn't an option. As soon as the Typhoon and Tempest were sorted they were put in service and used with the Hurricane sidelined, man hours to produce them was no part of the discussion. It was the same situation when the two stage supercharger Merlin started to become available, not all factories were making it and many single stage engines still got produced and Supermarine had many airframes for them. Waiting for two stage engines simply means many less Spitfire MkVs not more Mk IXs all from the same total man hours.Just read the document on man hours. So, that means Bf109, 4000 hrs: Hurricane, 5200 hrs; Spitfire, 13000 hrs. That makes the Hurricane way, way cheaper to procure than a Spitfire, although engines and guns would be similar. So its well worth installing the 2 speed Merlin. My take on the competitiveness of the Hurricane is that; the Mk Ia is superior to the Bf 109E below 15000 feet; the Mk IIa is able to hold its own against a Bf 109F-1/2 but outclassed by the Bf 109F-4 / Fw 190A onward; the Mk IIa is capable as an escort fighter defending bombers against the Mc 202 Folgore; the Mk IIb with a 6 gun armament or a Mk IIc with a 2 gun armament is able to hold its own against the Hayabusa; the Sea Hurricane Ib has superior performance to an A6M2 below 10000 feet; the Sea Hurricane IIc would have problems up against an A6M3 unless it fired the first shots.
Just read the document on man hours. So, that means Bf109, 4000 hrs: Hurricane, 5200 hrs; Spitfire, 13000 hrs. That makes the Hurricane way, way cheaper to procure than a Spitfire, although engines and guns would be similar. So its well worth installing the 2 speed Merlin.
My take on the competitiveness of the Hurricane is that; the Mk Ia is superior to the Bf 109E below 15000 feet; the Mk IIa is able to hold its own against a Bf 109F-1/2 but outclassed by the Bf 109F-4 / Fw 190A onward; the Mk IIa is capable as an escort fighter defending bombers against the Mc 202 Folgore; the Mk IIb with a 6 gun armament or a Mk IIc with a 2 gun armament is able to hold its own against the Hayabusa; the Sea Hurricane Ib has superior performance to an A6M2 below 10000 feet; the Sea Hurricane IIc would have problems up against an A6M3 unless it fired the first shots.
20 mph less.They did install the 2 speed Merlin in the Hurricane. That was the Merlin XX.
If you are talking about the Merlin 60 series, I'm not so sure. The engine was originally intended for the high altitude Wellington bomber, but Ernest Hives, head of Rolls-Royce, suggested putting the engine in the Spitfire. Not sure installing the engine in the Hurricane would have given him the same enthusiasm.
I'm not really sure your assessment is accurate.
The Hurricane IIa was about 40mph down on the Me 109F-2. I think that was getting close to a no-contest.
No problem fighting over UK big problem fighting over France.20 mph less.
Okay for escort, nothing better but by the time the Bf 109F-4 or Fw 190A comes along totally u/s, outclassed.No problem fighting over UK big problem fighting over France.
20 mph less.
20 mph less.
Source please.
Hurricane IIa, 342 mph. Bf 109F-1, 362IIRC one is not required to provide source if the said source can mess the rosy picture one has about his favorite aircraft. And, what is 20/30/40/50/you-name-it mph difference between the friends, eh?
Just sayin'....
At lower altitudes the Hurricane I had speed parity with boost with the Bf 109E, better roll rate, turning circle.The whole idea of the Hurricane II with the Merlin XX was to even the playing field between the Hurricane and the Bf 109E. Which it did to large extent but not completely (one also has to be careful about which 109E as they came with several different engines).
The 109E was faster at all altitudes than the Hurricane I ( using standard boost) and could out climb it and had a higher ceiling. The MK II Hurricane had a better ceiling, better climb and reduced but did not eliminate the 109Es speed advantage.
When the 109F showed up it was all over for the Hurricane as an air superiority fighter, no matter what other roles it could and did play.
600 km/h = 372 mph, not 362. Allied docs show 371 mph.