The real combat history of the Ki-43

[J.A.W.]

it's a safe bet that Merlin, 60 series in particular, was one of the best, most effective in-line aircraft engines ever made, and one of the most important things produced anywhere during the war.

The 60 series certainly made a major impact where it was really needed, from Spitfire Mk VIIIs in Burma to Mustangs/Mosquitos over Berlin.

 

[J.A.W.]

Right. What I was contesting when I linked the video above was the alleged impotence of the .50. Of course compared to a good 20mm a .50 won't do as much damage, but the notion that Germans didn't worry themselves about .50s is a bit far-fetched to me.

The USN rated the Hispano-type 20mm to be equivalent to 3 .50" in effectiveness, the German pilots themselves reported the chances of
surviving being shot down by .50" guns to be markedly higher than by 20mm, & coincidentally in accordance with the USN opinion.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The USN rated the Hispano-type 20mm to be equivalent to 3 .50" in effectiveness, the German pilots themselves reported the chances of
surviving being shot down by .50" guns to be markedly higher than by 20mm, & coincidentally in accordance with the USN opinion.

You figure, all the German pilots?

 

[J.A.W.]

Okay I'll say it, this is indeed one of the stupidest comments I've ever read on here, too much Merlin?, well without it we have no Spitfire Seafire Hurricane Lancaster Mozzie Mustang as well as numerous PT MTB's sea rescue boats and later tanks, are you trying to loose WW2?.

I wrote "Too much production" & not - 'even one was too many' - is that a "stupidest" inference attempt, or what?

Of course there were too many practically useless Hurricanes being churned out 'til mid 1944, Stalin was sent ~20% of 'em,
& the VVS regarded them as poor performers on so many levels...

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Can you relate what happened with the Spitfire Mk XXI (a Spitfire that finally matched the Typhoon's 4 x 20mm & 520mph Vne from 1941),
Weren't they rejected & reduced back to spares from brand new, once contract compliance had been signed off?

Easy see home plenty still around in 1954. The spares from brand new airframes were Typhoons, thanks to lack of Sabre production, when you count those Typhoons and the 265 airframes in storage end 1943 the RAF could have started Typhoon production around end 1942 instead of mid 1941 and been no worse off in terms of Typhoons with engines as of end 1943. While as of end 1942 three months production of R-2800 in the US would more than supply the entire Typhoon production run.

Spitfire F.21 needed a bigger tail resulting in entry to service being delayed while handling problems were sorted, the 20 series wing gave up some of the high Mach number performance, 122 F.21 built, starting with 1 in April 1944 then from June 1944 to January 1946, the F.22 from March 1945 to February 1946, plus 1 in October 1946, with 264 built. The 78 F.24 built February 1946 to April 1948 (with gaps)

The maximum safe dive speed is mostly about airframe not engine, as expected the Spitfire versions had differences. The general description of the Typhoon is strong. When it comes to safe dive speeds, from another discussion some time ago. The following table is an interesting reference for WW2 limiting mach numbers which are slightly lower than the critical mach number.

Spitfire MK XIV: 0.89
Me-262A : 0.86
Me-163A: 0.845
Me-163B: 0.84
P-51B: 0.84
Gloster Meteor: 0.83
Hawker Tempest: 0.83
P-47N: 0.83
Spitfire Mk IX 0.79
Bf-109G 0.78
Yak-3 0.76
Fw-190 0.75
F4U: 0.73
P-47C: 0.69
P-38: 0.65

No way known was a Hurricane going to carry a Typhoon's armour weight, & have any useful war-load. (late Mk IV with 1,640hp* evenso)
They, as P. Clostermann so succinctly put it - 'Struggled along at 250mph with a mere 4 rockets worth of weight & drag penalty'.

One of the major Hurricane myths is the mark IV had Merlin 24 or 27 or even one of the 30 series, the RAF form 78 show Merlin XX only, as do the accident reports which usually include serial numbers, Merlin XX power 1,280HP. The extra protection on the IID and IV degraded performance, that was to be improved with the more powerful engine in the V. The Hurricane V would have the same 8 rockets as the Typhoon but bombs limited to 500 pounds, it would have the 40mm gun option. The Hurricane IIA is quoted as 272 mph at sea level clean, 265 mph with tropical filter, 247mph with 8 rockets, the early Typhoon I 340 mph at sea level clean.

The RAF use of rocket rails is an example of the manufacturing situation, the rails were designed assuming they would increase accuracy, but did not, they had a bigger speed penalty than using stubs but the manufacture penalty to do a change was too great. Another case is the reality most of the allied aircraft doing ground attack work in France in 1944 were optimised for performance above 20,000 feet

The Typhoon was adapted to the JaBo role after seeing off the FW 190 raiders doing it to England, & did it better in return...

The defences plus the needs of other fronts stopped the fighter bomber raids, check out books like Luftwaffe Fighter-Bombers Over Britain: The Tip and Run Campaign 1942-43 Chris Goss, Peter Cornwell. I do like the narrative of how the Typhoon went from one triumph to another.

All the Fw190F and G would disagree with the did it better. The Typhoon fighter bomber changes were authorised on 14 April 1942 after Hawker had suggested it in November 1941, first issued to 181 squadron on 7 September 1942, first operation 28 November. Good to know the Luftwaffe fighter bombers had been seen off by end 1942.

(Including shooting down an Me 109 escort at 26,000ft during that famous daylight penetration to London in early 1943).

20 January 1943, a three wave assault which gave the defences a better chance to intercept, Typhoons claimed 6 kills, Spitfires 10, against the triumph a Typhoon also shot down a Mustang, pilot killed.

Case in point: Compare the two NZ fighter squadrons in Blighty, 485 & 486; 485 started earlier, & kept Spitfires throughout,
whereas 486 transitioned - Hurricane, Typhoon, Tempest, & handily outscored their countrymen, (plus bagging scores of V1s).

I suppose you do not have a reference like RAF Squadrons by Jefford. 485 formed in March 1941, being a Spitfire unit it rotated between the front line and places like Scotland before being sent to Europe end August 1944, to Scotland end February 1945 to convert to Typhoon/Tempest, reverted to Spitfires on return to Europe in mid April 1945.

486 formed in March 1942 with Hurricanes, received Typhoons in July at Wittering, then North Weald and West Malling before settling in at Tangmere on 29 October 1942, went to Scotland February/March 1944 to convert to Tempest (interesting as the Sabre did not like the cold), Castle Camps most of March 1944, Newchurch end April, to Europe end September 1944. The squadron claimed 241 V-1 according to Brian Cull and Bruce Lander in Diver! Diver! Diver!, making it the second most successful unit.

So far no success finding references listing Tempests dropping bombs or using rockets in combat during WWII, they were mostly air superiority, along with the Spitfire XIV while the Merlin Spitfires more became fighter bombers.

I look forward to the penetrating analysis of 8th Air Force Mustang versus 9th Air Force Thunderbolt in terms of combat claims made and the reverse 8th P-47 versus 9th P-51, then throw in the P-38, showing how much better the ones with the bigger claims were. The P-38 in Iceland versus those in Britain and so on. Typhoons claimed around 50 kills June 1944 to May 1945 inclusive, or about 2 days of June 1944 Spitfire claims. (Silly, isn't it).

& what kind of 'trade' was available at high altitude for the RAF anyway, the Welkin did nothing useful, & ADGB saw few
German aircraft in their zone at height,

The Welkin was 40,000 feet. The altitude band being referred to is the 20 to 30,000 feet one, where the Fw190A found itself in trouble for example but the Bf109 did not. The Sabre meant the Typhoon was lower level, great if the navy and/or army are present, not great if it is air forces trying to defeat each other.

with 2nd TAF needing low-level tactical air-support types (def' not Hurricanes post D-day).

The Hurricanes would be present if the Sabre situation was not sorted, the Hurricane V was the insurance policy.

Don't forget the Tempest Mk I had reached 470mph in the mid-20,000ft range, ~mid-war,

Don't forget Clostermann quotes the standard mark V as having this sort of performance, compared with the RAF 434 mph, no need to use a prototype, just Clostermann. The Tempest I first flew 24 February 1943, the 4 June tests gave 460 mph at 26,000 feet, further airframe improvements raised that to 472 mph in September. The first production mark V first flew on 21 June 1943, production officially started with 3 in October then from January 1944.

but Air Min/RAF wanted low-level Sabres.

The British wanted reliable engines, the Sabre IV used by the Tempest I never managed to pass the 50 hour test. Total Sabre IV production was 2 in February 1943, then one each in April, July, August and November 1943. No idea how many were used during the Tempest I testing. In any case the pre war High Speed Spitfire I is available for comparison if one offs are counted, or the mark III etc. (Really silly, isn't it).

The only way the Sabre can look good is ignore much of its record. End 1941 facilities earmarked for Sabre reallocated to Hercules, the 1,000 employees at Napier were managing 6 to 8 engines a week. A reason for so many Hurricanes built is the Sabre.

Hurricane exports from April 1940 onwards, destinations as shipped, includes Canadian built sent to Britain then on shipped, Canada either retained Hurricanes built there or exported them incomplete to Britain.

To No.
A.C.S.E.A. 694
Australia 1
Iceland 10
India 1,472
Iraq 56
Kenya 7
M.A.A.F. 88
Med. Air Command 689
Mediterranean 418 (Usually Malta)
Middle East 2,712
North Africa 63
Portugal 90
Russia 3,677
South Africa 19
U.S.A. 2
West Africa 14
Yugoslavia 6

Total 10,018 (plus exports to end March 1940), out of 14,487 built including prototypes

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The USN rated the Hispano-type 20mm to be equivalent to 3 .50" in effectiveness, the German pilots themselves reported the chances of
surviving being shot down by .50" guns to be markedly higher than by 20mm, & coincidentally in accordance with the USN opinion.

Again, no one is claiming the .50 is the equal of the 20. My point is that this idea that German pilots didn't worry about planes armed with .50s is nonsense.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

So I got another Osprey book, an older one called "Japanese Army Air Force Aces, 1937-45", by Henry Sakaida.

This is an older book, and it doesn't give the kind of detailed overview as the one on Oscars, but it goes through little bios of all the JAAF aces, and these include some combat anecdotes.

Our British and Commonwealth friends in here may appreciate this particular anecdote. It's one of the first ones in the Burma section of the book (page 27), part of the story of Lt Colonel Tateo Kato of the 64th Sentai. At his rank, Lt Col. Kato would not normally be flying missions but on the last day of his life, 22 May 1942, he led three Ki-43s into action against a Bristol Blenheim Mk IV.

This Blenheim was part of a group of three which flew out of Dum Dum in India to attack a Japanese airfield at Akyab. Two of the Blenheims had mechanical problems and turned back, leaving only Z9808, flown by WO Huggard, to hastily bomb the target. Blenheim Z9808 then flew back toward home very low over the Bay of Bengal. On their way out, they noticed three of the new Ki-43-I Hei fighters scrambling from the field to chase them. With nightmarish efficiency, these three fighters, considerably faster than the older Ki-27 the RAF had dealt with previously, quickly intercepted the Blenheim and started a series of attacks.

The dorsal turret gunner, the aptly named Sgt "Jock' McLuckie had never shot his drum fed Vickers 'K' gun at an enemy aircraft. He now pulled back the bolt to chamber the first round, apparently determined to do his duty. To the good fortune of the crew, and sadness for the JAAF, he turned out to be an excellent marksman.

The first Ki-43 piloted by Sgt Maj Yoshito Yasuda dived in to attack, only to be raked by bullets on it's first past, causing Yasuda to nurse his smoking Ki-43 back to base. The second, piloted by Capt Masuzo Otani then attacked, but it too was hit by a fusilade of bullets from "Jock" McLuckie's K-gun, and veered off, damaged, heading back to Akyab. The third Ki-43 persisted in attacks, but more cautiously, and a running fight continued for thirty minutes.

That is when Lt Col. Kato showed up leading another flight of three Hayabusa. He lead the three planes to the attack, but McLuckie was unphased, and cut loose again with the Vickers K gun. As Kato pulled up from his first pass, "Jock" McLuckie got lucky again and blasted the belly of the plane with bullets, starting a fire which was clearly not going to go out. Lt Col. Kato was a proponent of the policy of "crash before surrender", and did as he had frequently told his men to do - he did a half-loop and intentionally plunged into the sea. The remaining three Hayabusa turned around and flew back to base to convey the bad news, and Z9808 made it back to Dum Dum.

This fantastic story would go down as '2 damaged, 1 destroyed' but it was a bit more epic than that in reality. I hope McLuckie got a medal!

 

[RCAFson]

So I got another Osprey book, an older one called "Japanese Army Air Force Aces, 1937-45", by Henry Sakaida.

This is an older book, and it doesn't give the kind of detailed overview as the one on Oscars, but it goes through little bios of all the JAAF aces, and these include some combat anecdotes.

Our British and Commonwealth friends in here may appreciate this particular anecdote. It's one of the first ones in the Burma section of the book (page 27), part of the story of Lt Colonel Tateo Kato of the 64th Sentai. At his rank, Lt Col. Kato would not normally be flying missions but on the last day of his life, 22 May 1942, he led three Ki-43s into action against a Bristol Blenheim Mk IV.

This Blenheim was part of a group of three which flew out of Dum Dum in India to attack a Japanese airfield at Akyab. Two of the Blenheims had mechanical problems and turned back, leaving only Z9808, flown by WO Huggard, to hastily bomb the target. Blenheim Z9808 then flew back toward home very low over the Bay of Bengal. On their way out, they noticed three of the new Ki-43-I Hei fighters scrambling from the field to chase them. With nightmarish efficiency, these three fighters, considerably faster than the older Ki-27 the RAF had dealt with previously, quickly intercepted the Blenheim and started a series of attacks.

View attachment 759974

The dorsal turret gunner, the aptly named Sgt "Jock' McLuckie had never shot his drum fed Vickers 'K' gun at an enemy aircraft. He now pulled back the bolt to chamber the first round, apparently determined to do his duty. To the good fortune of the crew, and sadness for the JAAF, he turned out to be an excellent marksman.

The first Ki-43 piloted by Sgt Maj Yoshito Yasuda dived in to attack, only to be raked by bullets on it's first past, causing Yasuda to nurse his smoking Ki-43 back to base. The second, piloted by Capt Masuzo Otani then attacked, but it too was hit by a fusilade of bullets from "Jock" McLuckie's K-gun, and veered off, damaged, heading back to Akyab. The third Ki-43 persisted in attacks, but more cautiously, and a running fight continued for thirty minutes.

View attachment 759975

That is when Lt Col. Kato showed up leading another flight of three Hayabusa. He lead the three planes to the attack, but McLuckie was unphased, and cut loose again with the Vickers K gun. As Kato pulled up from his first pass, "Jock" McLuckie got lucky again and blasted the belly of the plane with bullets, starting a fire which was clearly not going to go out. Lt Col. Kato was a proponent of the policy of "crash before surrender", and did as he had frequently told his men to do - he did a half-loop and intentionally plunged into the sea. The remaining three Hayabusa turned around and flew back to base to convey the bad news, and Z9808 made it back to Dum Dum.

This fantastic story would go down as '2 damaged, 1 destroyed' but it was a bit more epic than that in reality. I hope McLuckie got a medal!

On 9 April 1942 after their attack on the Kido Butai 9 Blenheims fought a running fight with a large number of Zeros; 4 Blenheims were shot down but the dorsal turret gunners shot down 1 Zero. After shaking the CAP Zeros the Blenheims ran into more Zeros and Vals returning from Ceylon and another Blenheim and Zero were shot down. The Vickers K gun had a very high RoF (1100-1200rpm, IIRC) and could really hurt an unarmoured aircraft.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

I sort of stayed away from commenting in this thread (though it's been civil for the most part), but considering that the USAAF and other Allies tested the Ki-84 and generally rated it (when well flown and in full working order) to likely be the most formidable IJA (and probably overall Japanese fighter) and should under such conditions be the equal of most Allied fighters in theater at the time, I find it strange that the IJA pilots felt that the P-51B/D had a marked advantage over the Ki-84.

 

[nuuumannn]

Of course there were too many practically useless Hurricanes being churned out 'til mid 1944,

Let's not forget that the Hurricane made an excellent close support aircraft that had proven its worth in North Africa, the Med and in the Far East. It was kept in production for this reason and because it was easy to maintain and service in rough environments, like North Africa and the CBI, but hey, let's continue to flog an ill-informed perspective. It isn't as if it is somehow difficult to find this stuff out...

1939 – 1945 – 6 Squadron RAF Association

sixsqnassociation.org.uk

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Let's not forget that the Hurricane made an excellent close support aircraft that had proven its worth in North Africa, the Med and in the Far East. It was kept in production for this reason and because it was easy to maintain and service in rough environments, like North Africa and the CBI, but hey, let's continue to flog an ill-informed perspective. It isn't as if it is somehow difficult to find this stuff out...

1939 – 1945 – 6 Squadron RAF Association

sixsqnassociation.org.uk

Useless might be an exaggeration but the Hurricane was not doing well in North Africa after 1941

 

[nuuumannn]

Useless might be an exaggeration but the Hurricane was not doing well in North Africa after 1941

A bit of a sweeping generalisation, I reckon. You forget the Hurricane was being used as a strike fighter and at the battles of El Alamein in 1942 wiped out a large number of German tanks, so not doing very well might be a little misplaced. Also, in late 1944 early 1945, senior British commanders stated that the battles in the Arakan would not have been as successful if it weren't for the presence of the ground attack Hurricanes, but again though, let's stick to the presumptions...

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

A bit of a sweeping generalisation, I reckon. You forget the Hurricane was being used as a strike fighter and at the battles of El Alamein in 1942 wiped out a large number of German tanks, so not doing very well might be a little misplaced. Also, in late 1944 early 1945, senior British commanders stated that the battles in the Arakan would not have been as successful if it weren't for the presence of the ground attack Hurricanes, but again though, let's stick to the presumptions...

How many tanks precisely were knocked out by hurricanes specifically?

I don't deny the Hurricane was still providing some useful service as a fighter bomber, but it was already second fiddle in that role in the Middle East, and no longer viable as a fighter by Second El Alamein.

 

[Admiral Beez]

How many tanks precisely were knocked out by hurricanes specifically?

I don't think anyone can have a precise count of any historical kills. You're really asking the exact number of tanks? How can anyone be certain? I think you'll need to settle for requesting an approximation.

 

[PAT303]

I sort of stayed away from commenting in this thread (though it's been civil for the most part), but considering that the USAAF and other Allies tested the Ki-84 and generally rated it (when well flown and in full working order) to likely be the most formidable IJA (and probably overall Japanese fighter) and should under such conditions be the equal of most Allied fighters in theater at the time, I find it strange that the IJA pilots felt that the P-51B/D had a marked advantage over the Ki-84.

While I agree with you unfortunately from what I have been able to find they had trouble with the full working order bit, no doubt it could go head to head with any allied fighter ''if'' it reached it's design spec's but as it was 380mph top speed, cannons, armor, self sealing tanks was old news by 1944.

It's a very nice looking aircraft, you can imagine it would cause issue's with identification if P47's were around.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

It's a lot slimmer than a P-47. The Ki-43 pilots and unit commanders seemed to think Ki-84 was fast (and it probably did well more than 380 mph) but not that maneuverable, at least by their standards.

 

[nuuumannn]

How many tanks precisely were knocked out by hurricanes specifically?

I don't deny the Hurricane was still providing some useful service as a fighter bomber, but it was already second fiddle in that role in the Middle East, and no longer viable as a fighter by Second El Alamein.

I don't really know how many tanks the Hurricanes took out, and neither do you, which means you can't prove it wasn't any good, based on your logic.

Yes, it was useful as a fighter bomber, which is (and I repeat) why it was kept in production for so long. The British prioritised its best equipment for the home and European theatre, but Hurricane units were active over Europe in 1943/1944 as strike aircraft, rocket carrying Hurricanes active during the invasion of Europe in 1944. In the Far East it was available in numbers, which meant its contribution was, and I am quoting prominent British historian Robert Jackson here;

"out of all proportion to the losses they [Hurricanes] sustained. Over the Imphal Valley, it had been Dakota transports that had kept the army supplied and the Spitfires which had brought mastery of the air; but it had been the Hurricanes which had first of all blunted the spearhead of the Japanese advance, then slowed it down, and finally stopped it altogether."

We've been through this before and no doubt we'll have this same debate over and over...

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I guess we will. The idea that the Hurricanes stopped the Japanese advance is dubious, IMO.

It seems that it's impossible for some people to admit that any RAF aircraft was ever less than ideal in any way. But regardless of the feelings of some people, I'm not going to play along with that.

The Hurricane was clearly lacking in many categories by 1942, whether in Burma, or Egypt, or God forbid Northern France, and it was in serious trouble as a war machine in 1943. It certainly wasn't stopping the Japanese as a fighter in Burma / India, and contrary to tropes repeatedly posted in here, all those Hurricanes didn't get shot down while flying CAS.

 

[J.A.W.]

Easy see home plenty still around in 1954. The spares from brand new airframes were Typhoons, thanks to lack of Sabre production, when you count those Typhoons and the 265 airframes in storage end 1943 the RAF could have started Typhoon production around end 1942 instead of mid 1941 and been no worse off in terms of Typhoons with engines as of end 1943. While as of end 1942 three months production of R-2800 in the US would more than supply the entire Typhoon production run.

Spitfire F.21 needed a bigger tail resulting in entry to service being delayed while handling problems were sorted, the 20 series wing gave up some of the high Mach number performance, 122 F.21 built, starting with 1 in April 1944 then from June 1944 to January 1946, the F.22 from March 1945 to February 1946, plus 1 in October 1946, with 264 built. The 78 F.24 built February 1946 to April 1948 (with gaps)

The maximum safe dive speed is mostly about airframe not engine, as expected the Spitfire versions had differences. The general description of the Typhoon is strong. When it comes to safe dive speeds, from another discussion some time ago. The following table is an interesting reference for WW2 limiting mach numbers which are slightly lower than the critical mach number.

Spitfire MK XIV: 0.89
Me-262A : 0.86
Me-163A: 0.845
Me-163B: 0.84
P-51B: 0.84
Gloster Meteor: 0.83
Hawker Tempest: 0.83
P-47N: 0.83
Spitfire Mk IX 0.79
Bf-109G 0.78
Yak-3 0.76
Fw-190 0.75
F4U: 0.73
P-47C: 0.69
P-38: 0.65


One of the major Hurricane myths is the mark IV had Merlin 24 or 27 or even one of the 30 series, the RAF form 78 show Merlin XX only, as do the accident reports which usually include serial numbers, Merlin XX power 1,280HP. The extra protection on the IID and IV degraded performance, that was to be improved with the more powerful engine in the V. The Hurricane V would have the same 8 rockets as the Typhoon but bombs limited to 500 pounds, it would have the 40mm gun option. The Hurricane IIA is quoted as 272 mph at sea level clean, 265 mph with tropical filter, 247mph with 8 rockets, the early Typhoon I 340 mph at sea level clean.

The RAF use of rocket rails is an example of the manufacturing situation, the rails were designed assuming they would increase accuracy, but did not, they had a bigger speed penalty than using stubs but the manufacture penalty to do a change was too great. Another case is the reality most of the allied aircraft doing ground attack work in France in 1944 were optimised for performance above 20,000 feet

The defences plus the needs of other fronts stopped the fighter bomber raids, check out books like Luftwaffe Fighter-Bombers Over Britain: The Tip and Run Campaign 1942-43 Chris Goss, Peter Cornwell. I do like the narrative of how the Typhoon went from one triumph to another.

All the Fw190F and G would disagree with the did it better. The Typhoon fighter bomber changes were authorised on 14 April 1942 after Hawker had suggested it in November 1941, first issued to 181 squadron on 7 September 1942, first operation 28 November. Good to know the Luftwaffe fighter bombers had been seen off by end 1942.


20 January 1943, a three wave assault which gave the defences a better chance to intercept, Typhoons claimed 6 kills, Spitfires 10, against the triumph a Typhoon also shot down a Mustang, pilot killed.


I suppose you do not have a reference like RAF Squadrons by Jefford. 485 formed in March 1941, being a Spitfire unit it rotated between the front line and places like Scotland before being sent to Europe end August 1944, to Scotland end February 1945 to convert to Typhoon/Tempest, reverted to Spitfires on return to Europe in mid April 1945.

486 formed in March 1942 with Hurricanes, received Typhoons in July at Wittering, then North Weald and West Malling before settling in at Tangmere on 29 October 1942, went to Scotland February/March 1944 to convert to Tempest (interesting as the Sabre did not like the cold), Castle Camps most of March 1944, Newchurch end April, to Europe end September 1944. The squadron claimed 241 V-1 according to Brian Cull and Bruce Lander in Diver! Diver! Diver!, making it the second most successful unit.

So far no success finding references listing Tempests dropping bombs or using rockets in combat during WWII, they were mostly air superiority, along with the Spitfire XIV while the Merlin Spitfires more became fighter bombers.

I look forward to the penetrating analysis of 8th Air Force Mustang versus 9th Air Force Thunderbolt in terms of combat claims made and the reverse 8th P-47 versus 9th P-51, then throw in the P-38, showing how much better the ones with the bigger claims were. The P-38 in Iceland versus those in Britain and so on. Typhoons claimed around 50 kills June 1944 to May 1945 inclusive, or about 2 days of June 1944 Spitfire claims. (Silly, isn't it).


The Welkin was 40,000 feet. The altitude band being referred to is the 20 to 30,000 feet one, where the Fw190A found itself in trouble for example but the Bf109 did not. The Sabre meant the Typhoon was lower level, great if the navy and/or army are present, not great if it is air forces trying to defeat each other.


The Hurricanes would be present if the Sabre situation was not sorted, the Hurricane V was the insurance policy.


Don't forget Clostermann quotes the standard mark V as having this sort of performance, compared with the RAF 434 mph, no need to use a prototype, just Clostermann. The Tempest I first flew 24 February 1943, the 4 June tests gave 460 mph at 26,000 feet, further airframe improvements raised that to 472 mph in September. The first production mark V first flew on 21 June 1943, production officially started with 3 in October then from January 1944.


The British wanted reliable engines, the Sabre IV used by the Tempest I never managed to pass the 50 hour test. Total Sabre IV production was 2 in February 1943, then one each in April, July, August and November 1943. No idea how many were used during the Tempest I testing. In any case the pre war High Speed Spitfire I is available for comparison if one offs are counted, or the mark III etc. (Really silly, isn't it).

The only way the Sabre can look good is ignore much of its record. End 1941 facilities earmarked for Sabre reallocated to Hercules, the 1,000 employees at Napier were managing 6 to 8 engines a week. A reason for so many Hurricanes built is the Sabre.

Hurricane exports from April 1940 onwards, destinations as shipped, includes Canadian built sent to Britain then on shipped, Canada either retained Hurricanes built there or exported them incomplete to Britain.

To No.
A.C.S.E.A. 694
Australia 1
Iceland 10
India 1,472
Iraq 56
Kenya 7
M.A.A.F. 88
Med. Air Command 689
Mediterranean 418 (Usually Malta)
Middle East 2,712
North Africa 63
Portugal 90
Russia 3,677
South Africa 19
U.S.A. 2
West Africa 14
Yugoslavia 6

Total 10,018 (plus exports to end March 1940), out of 14,487 built including prototypes

The Spitfire Mk 21 wasn't a success, the AFDU wrote a scathing report on it, esp' in relation to its flight control characteristics,
& by comparison to earlier marks, recommended a warning to pilots familiar with them to not expect the Mk 21 to be so benign.
In fact, production was cancelled, & the following 20-series types received the larger Spiteful tail empennage to ameliorate the issue,
& 40 brand new Mk 21s were unceremoniously sent to Shoeburyness for use as research targets (grounded) - the well-known 30mm
Mauser cannon test footage shows one of these 'orphan' Spits being graphically rent asunder.

The allowable dive speeds are listed in 'Pilots Notes' as 'limitations', & for example, although the Spitfire V was thereby approved for a
450mph IAS at low level, the problem was, not only were the Me 109/FW 190 Vne limits higher, but the Spit had a marked tendency to
'hang' before gaining speed, & this let the Germans pull away, & extend before the Spitfire's 'hell for leather' pilots prepared to ignore
the 'limitations' could use any 'research-type' advantage - in fact the Spitfire Ace I'd noted earlier, had pushed his Spit beyond its limit
during the Battle of Britain, in hot pursuit of a 109, & 'had the luck of the Devil' to survive the Spit's disintegration around him.

As for the Typhoon, see here linked, an early one in a trial against a Spitfire V, (check the S-L speed advantage* - it shows why the FW 190
could not get away with a '0 ft' full-speed straight run against the Typhoon, unlike with the Spitfire, (& why the RAF rushed the Typhoon
in to service - while rejecting the Bell P-39 which had been bought on the promise of its low-level speed, but didn't deliver on test)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/typhoon/Typhoon_AFDU_Tactical_Trials.pdf

The redirection of the FW 190 JaBos was in good part due to the losses they suffered - (I have the Goss/Cornwell book), as evidenced
by the attempt to switch them to night raids, (which also suffered due to the German pilots thinking a more relaxed cruise-speed would
work, only to be caught by NF Mosquitos, ironically enough.

The Hurricane only carried 4 rockets, not 8 like the Typhoon, (& the Hurricane was rapidly phased out, as more Typhoons 'came on line'.
The Sabre VA was a development of the Sabre IV, (ironically, receiving the benefits of work done to sort out the high-altitude issues the
earlier unit had suffered from, (same issues other engines had) viz: oil foaming & high-tension ignition scatter problems.

Funny but true, the expensively developed high-altitude 2-stage supercharged Spitfires (Merlin & Griffon, both) could find 'no trade'
'upstairs' & Spifire IX & XVI were pressed into duty as (fairly unsatisfactory - compared to the Typhoon) fighter bombers, while the
vaunted Mk XIV was out-performed & out-scored (both V1 & EA) by the "more warlike" Tempest in the 'air superiority' role.

Likewise, the expensive turbo-optimised P-38 & P-47 were relegated by the P-51B/C/D from the 'glamour' 8th AAF 'strategic missions'
to TAF 'mud-moving' - a role that was brutal enough on the the sturdy T-blot, (even after they put big 'stars & bars' markings under
both wings in an attempt to lessen 'friendly fire' from the ground) while the P-38 suffered even more, & was eventually put in sort of
a defacto Mosquito light-medium bomber role via a 100 odd 'droop snoot' conversions as formation leader/bomb aimer planes.

Again you repeat the mistake of conflating Sabre design/performance with poor British manufacturing/organisational effort.

Edit: * AFDU Trial speed graph shows Typhoon making 366mph at S-L, was any other service fighter capable of that speed/height in 1941?

 

[PAT303]

As for the Typhoon, see here linked, an early one in a trial against a Spitfire V, (check the S-L speed advantage* - it shows why the FW 190
could not get away with a '0 ft' full-speed straight run against the Typhoon, unlike with the Spitfire, (& why the RAF rushed the Typhoon
in to service - while rejecting the Bell P-39 which had been bought on the promise of its low-level speed, but didn't deliver on test)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/typhoon/Typhoon_AFDU_Tactical_Trials.pdf
The redirection of the FW 190 JaBos was in good part due to the losses they suffered - (I have the Goss/Cornwell book), as evidenced
by the attempt to switch them to night raids, (which also suffered due to the German pilots thinking a more relaxed cruise-speed would
work, only to be caught by NF Mosquitos, ironically enough.

Spitfire Mk XII Performance Testing

Spitfire Performance Testing, wartime flight trials and reports of Spitfire aircraft. Spitfire Mk XII data.

www.spitfireperformance.com

I'll let the pilots combat reports speak for themselves in regards to how effective the Spitfire was against FW190 incursions.