The scarcity of fighter to fighter FW-190A pilot combat accounts... (1 Viewer)

[wrathofatlantis]

Something really odd just occurred to me.

In all my years of researching for this board game variant [ Advanced Air Force | Air Force ], I cannot recall a single example of a FW-190A pilot narrating a combat with an Allied fighter, certainly not with a Western Front fighter, except for one where the pilot chose to remain anonymous (thereby lies the problem I think).

In that one instance, he described exclusively turn fighting P-51Ds at reduced power, flaps down (gaining easily, pushing on the stick and deflecting the ailerons to hold the wing up, in low speed right turns down on the deck), and facing into each pass when they refused to turn.

Another 190A-8 pilot corrected a painting of his aircraft wings level, and said that by 1945 they turned all the time. "It was the only way to survive."

I have read quite a few encounters against bombers from Anton pilots (numerous accounts of this in Osprey books and others), but actual detailed FW-190A combat with single engine fighters is astonishingly rare.

I then realised that even Me-109G accounts are also fairly rare (but not as bad), and the majority of those I have read came from the Finnish(!), aside a few rare specific kills narrated by Hartmann, Rall, Marseille and a few others (including the one blowing his G14AS engine diving on a mosquito).

Does anyone have detailed fighter to fighter combat accounts from the FW-190A perspective, with the actual 190A pilot describing a specific encounter, not just generalities about this?

And by this I do not mean a newbie getting shot down on his first flight: I mean a flight with a precisely described kill...

Am I wrong in thinking this is rare?

 

[wrathofatlantis]

Apparently NOT!

 

[Snautzer01]

Must be a book over this somewhere.

 

[MIflyer]

Well, one book comes to mind. I can't find it right now but its title is something like "FW-190 in Combat." A relatively inexperienced FW-190 pilot based in France around the time of Overlord describes his experiences. His unit bounced some P-47's that were doing ground attack but the Thunderbolts got on the horn and very shortly a bunch of P-38's showed up. Things went rapidly downhill from there, and he described how the P-38's seemed almost casual as they came overhead, broke up into pairs, and began picking off the 190's one by one. He was shot down and crashed but managed to hitchhike back to his airfield, where he was told that the location was too hot and they were pulling out, so go climb in a truck. After seeing what the P-47's were doing to the ground transport he said he would rather fly and asked about the lone FW-190 on the field. He was told they were abandoning it since it had engine problems and he said he would take it anyway. The engine overheated and he crashed; rough day, huh?

But perhaps the comments of an experienced F6F pilot who flew an FW-190 explains the lack of FW-190 dogfight reports. His conclusion was "It is not a dogfighter. It is designed for hit and run attacks." The 8th AF did a mock combat between a captured FW-190 and a P-47 and the Thunderbolt outmaneuvered the 190. Likely, an FW-190 pilot who tried a lot of dogfighting did not survive very long.

Gen Adolph Galland described going up with another general officer to investigate the absurd rumors of new USAAF fighter planes penetrating deep into Germany. They met a flight of P-51's; the other general was shot down and Galland got away only by firing straight ahead to make the Mustang pilots think all the debris coming out of his guns were someone shooting at them. I think Galland probably knew a thing or twelve about dogfighting, but did he try to outmaneuver the Mustangs even though he had never met one before? No!

 

[wrathofatlantis]

Well, one book comes to mind. I can't find it right now but its title is something like "FW-190 in Combat." A relatively inexperienced FW-190 pilot based in France around the time of Overlord describes his experiences. His unit bounced some P-47's that were doing ground attack but the Thunderbolts got on the horn and very shortly a bunch of P-38's showed up. Things went rapidly downhill from there, and he described how the P-38's seemed almost casual as they came overhead, broke up into pairs, and began picking off the 190's one by one. He was shot down and crashed but managed to hitchhike back to his airfield, where he was told that the location was too hot and they were pulling out, so go climb in a truck. After seeing what the P-47's were doing to the ground transport he said he would rather fly and asked about the lone FW-190 on the field. He was told they were abandoning it since it had engine problems and he said he would take it anyway. The engine overheated and he crashed; rough day, huh?

But perhaps the comments of an experienced F6F pilot who flew an FW-190 explains the lack of FW-190 dogfight reports. His conclusion was "It is not a dogfighter. It is designed for hit and run attacks." The 8th AF did a mock combat between a captured FW-190 and a P-47 and the Thunderbolt outmaneuvered the 190. Likely, an FW-190 pilot who tried a lot of dogfighting did not survive very long.

Gen Adolph Galland described going up with another general officer to investigate the absurd rumors of new USAAF fighter planes penetrating deep into Germany. They met a flight of P-51's; the other general was shot down and Galland got away only by firing straight ahead to make the Mustang pilots think all the debris coming out of his guns were someone shooting at them. I think Galland probably knew a thing or twelve about dogfighting, but did he try to outmaneuver the Mustangs even though he had never met one before? No!

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Thank you very much for the effort. I really appreciate it, and will try to look up this book, but that is still not a lot for an aircraft that has multiple 200 kills aces, and I think holds the record for the most kills in one day by one airframe (at around 17 or so)...

As to the opinion of the Hellcat pilot, I rather go with the top Spitfire ace (36), and top Western FW-190A killer (at 20), Johnny Johnson, in a 1946 article: "I asked the Spitfire for all she had in the turn, but in another couple of turns he would have me in his sights."

If we had more first hand accounts of Luftwaffe FW-190A pilots, we would probably hear more about having to push on the stick to make really tight turns below 220 knots... So far only Eric Brown has gone into enough detail to mention this.

 

[GrauGeist]

Look for the book "Fighters Of The Iron Cross" by Jerry Crandall.

In it, are quite a few interviews with Fw190 Experten that he, and his wife Judy, interviewed over the years.

 

[MIflyer]

So far only Eric Brown has gone into enough detail to mention this.

Eric Brown mentioned that one time he was in a combat in a Spit IX (I think) with an FW-190 near the Effifel Tower. He said that they both broke off combat simultaneously, both obviously concluding that the guy they were fighting was as good as themselves and the outcome was in doubt.

 

[Snautzer01]

Apparently NOT!

So next time a being a tad more patiënt, i think, will do.

 

[Snautzer01]

and I think holds the record for the most kills in one day by one airframe (at around 17 or so)...

You have got some reading to do. All is not what it seems to be.

Post #6 is a good start.

Read Erich Hartmann and his victories and overclaims over Hungary

 

[MIflyer]

The book I was thinking of is "Focke Wulf FW-190 In Combat" by Alfred Price from Sutton Publishing. Lowest price I see on ebay is $7.39, shipping included.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

A few cheap book recommendations:

- Donald Caldwell, JG 26 Top Guns of the Luftwaffe [numerous first-hand accounts of fighter-versus-fighter combat on the Channel and Western Fronts]
- Donald Caldwell, The JG 26 War Diary Volume One
- Donald Caldwell, The JG 26 War Diary Volume Two
- Patrick G. Eriksson, Alarmstart: The German Fighter Pilot's Experience in the Second World War [dozens of first-hand accounts up to June 1944]
- Patrick G. Eriksson, Alarmstart South and Final Defeat [dozens of first-hand accounts covering the Mediterranean, North Africa, and the Western Front up to the end of the war]
- Gunther Bloemertz, Heaven Next Stop [memoirs of a Jagdgeschwader 26 pilot]
- Neil Page, Luftwaffe Fighters: Combat on All Fronts Volume 1 [numerous first-hand accounts]
- Neil Page, Luftwaffe Fighters: Combat on All Fronts Volume 2 [numerous first-hand accounts]
- Wolfgang Fischer, Luftwaffe Fighter Pilot [Bf 109 accounts only, memoirs of a Jagdgeschwader 2 pilot]
- Peter Henn, The Last Battle [Bf 109 accounts only, memoirs of a II./Jagdgeschwader 51 pilot]
- Heinz Knoke, I Flew for the Führer [Bf 109 accounts only, memoirs of a Jagdgeschwader 1 pilot]

The Alfred Price book mentioned above is also highly recommended as a good starting point.

And if you have a bigger budget, there are dozens more books in English including the kinds of accounts you are seeking.

Cheers,
Andrew A.