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Looks like you've got it all sewn up neatly, Cobber. So, what are you trying to prove by establishing this thread if you already know the answer? Thankfully (heaven help us...) the RAAF didn't have to bother with such box ticking when it had to go to war because both options were available to it. It chose the Spitfire for short range defence and the P-40 for long range fighter bomber duties and if I were in the same situation I would also make the same choices. Why bother trying to justify which was better when the answer is clear. Read your history books and learn about both types' use in the PTO by the RAAF.
I couldn't find a direct comparison between the Spitfire V and the P-40, a Spit I was compared to the P-40s air cooled predecessor, the Hawk 75. From Wiki: "The Hawk was found to have lighter controls than the Spitfire at speeds over 300 mph (480 km/h), especially in diving attacks…"
And from Ray Hanna, who spent plenty of time in both types: "Where the P-40 excels and will throw out most other fighters is in diving, rolling manoeuvres".
As neither the Spitfire or Zero were renowned for diving and rolling, I'd guess he was including them in his category of 'most fighters'
Several posts have refuted the assertion that the P-40 was superior to the Spitfire by comparing their performance figures. The Spitfire will always win this contest in the air, but to use its superior performance against the enemy in the PTO it would often need to take off and land from third rate fields and be kept operational in between.
The Spitfire was known as a tricky aircraft to land and take off in
The P-40 was noted for its landing qualities, many of them bad, according to pilot's testimony.
"The P-40 was the hardest to land of any of teh US World War II fighters".
and it required highly skilled technicians to maintain it.
Also, in response to the view that comparing the two is a case of apples and oranges as the P-40 was a fighter bomber and the Spitfire a pure fighter, I've never differentiated to much between these categories as I can't think of a single fighter that wasn't also a fighter bomber as the need arose.
I want my fighter to cover as many bases as possible and I still maintain the P-40 ticks more boxes.
The Spitfire was undoubtedly much better as an interceptor, or it should have been given the right tactics, although the figures suggest it didn't shine even in this role in the PTO.
But at all but the highest altitudes the P-40 made similarly effective use of the same tactics
plus it could take more punishment
plus it was better in ground attack
plus it was easier to fly from goat tracks
plus it was easier to keep in the air.
Like the Hurricane in the BoB it was the right aircraft in the right place at the right time.
What version of Spitfire was that? Metal ailerons or fabric?
Did any Spit Mk Is have other than fabric control surfaces? I believe most if not all did, so Id think this was so of the one tested
Does having lighter controls mean it is a better diver?
Given that the overwhelming tendancy seems to be that controls stiffen as airspeed increases, yes
He doesn't say that the Spitfire was better or worse or otherwise?
No, he doesn't specifically compare the P-40 to the Spitfire in this regard. So show me a quote from a similarly experienced pilot stating that the Spitfire excels in diving and rolling Manoeuvres, or words to that effect, and I'll happly concede the point
.An assumption. Spitfires are renowned for their manoeuvrability, so diving qualities are probably glossed over
For real? How would you characterise the second part of the above quote then?
Roll performance was lower than the P-40. But if that was a big deal, they could always clip the wings and gain that roll performance. As I said before, it requires unbolting the existing wingtips and bolting on a new set.
But they didn't, so far as I know, so in the real world we are stuck with unclipped Spitfires.
That is quite true.
But how much difference between the Spitfire and the P-40 in regard of serviceability was down to the supply chain? As in there were plenty of Allison aircraft and the spares to keep them going, but a dearth of Merlins and spares.
Yep, if nothing else US industrial might was bound to make a huge difference to supply. But the P-40 had other big advantages - I know Wiki is not everybody's favourite reference source so feel free to refute the following quote: "Comparisons between Allison engine and the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine are inevitable. What can be said for the Allison is that it made more power at less boost with a longer time between overhauls and the part count was nearly half that of the Merlin engine which facilitated mass production greatly. The British-made Merlin engines were still reliant upon hand-crafted and fitted parts from skilled craftsmen, something which was corrected by the redesign and success of the Packard V-1650 license-produced version of it in the United States, built with American production-line techniques. There also was a high degree of commonality of parts throughout the series. The individual parts of the Allison series were produced to a high degree of standardization and reliability, using the best technology available at the time."
.According to the Luftwaffe pilots who tested them it was ridiculously easy to land and take-off in them
I believe you are paraphrasing one pilot, Werner Molders, who had one point of reference: the Bf109, a fighter renowned for its difficulty in landing and take-off.
The P-40's undercarriage was quite narrow as well, which caused as many problems as on the Spitfire.
Yes, the P-40 was nothing like as good in this respect as that other unglamorous work-horse, the Hurricane. But I was thinking as much of serviceability as flying characteristics. I can't see any way the splayed undercarriage of the Spitfire is going to be as forgiving of heavy landings of rough sufaces as the (somewhat) wider, up and down gear on the P-40, especially given the Kittyhawks reputation for toughness in adverse conditions. Also, I believe the P-40 had more prop to ground clearance, which was an issue with the Spit
Some went to fighter bombing because they were no longer up to the pure fighter role. The Spitfire V in the ETO is an example. The P-40 is an example everywhere.
Others, of course, because there were no more aerial targets.
The RNZAF, who absorbed the hard learned tactics of the US pilots flew plenty of ground attack and pure fighter missions with their small force of P-40s through to 1944, and were credited with something like a hundred Japanese fighters destroyed for a fraction of the losses in return. So it seems they were still up to it. Had they Japanese been able to field numbers of their later designs the story might have been different, but they didn't and it wasn't.
.Maybe it ticks the fighetr-bomber box. But not much else
Whereas the Spitfire ticks the interceptor box but not much else?
But wasn't that because of the tactics used?
Yes. The Spit became much more effective once it started using the tactics the Americans were already using with their P-40sOnce it the right tactics were used it became much more efective
Which was, from what one of the earlier links said, where the battles over Darwin were fought.
I believe that once the early warning system was in place the P-40s were typically able to attack from above also, and took a significant toll on both Japanese Bombers and fighters
Something, yes. Just nowhere near as much as the ability to carry more bombs much further.Well, the Spitfre had more firepower. Surely that counts for something in ground attack?
Was this because it was easier to maintain, or because it had a better supply chain?
Both
Perhaps "because it was available" would be the better terminology?
I would like to spend tonight with Cameron Diaz but unfortunately she is unavailable. That, even in the absence of all her other qualities, makes my wife the better woman.
Given that the overwhelming tendancy seems to be that controls stiffen as airspeed increases, yes
No, he doesn't specifically compare the P-40 to the Spitfire in this regard. So show me a quote from a similarly experienced pilot stating that the Spitfire excels in diving and rolling Manoeuvres, or words to that effect, and I'll happly concede the point
For real? How would you characterise the second part of the above quote then?
But they didn't, so far as I know, so in the real world we are stuck with unclipped Spitfires.
Yep, if nothing else US industrial might was bound to make a huge difference to supply. But the P-40 had other big advantages - I know Wiki is not everybody's favourite reference source so feel free to refute the following quote: "Comparisons between Allison engine and the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine are inevitable. What can be said for the Allison is that it made more power at less boost with a longer time between overhauls and the part count was nearly half that of the Merlin engine which facilitated mass production greatly. The British-made Merlin engines were still reliant upon hand-crafted and fitted parts from skilled craftsmen, something which was corrected by the redesign and success of the Packard V-1650 license-produced version of it in the United States, built with American production-line techniques. There also was a high degree of commonality of parts throughout the series. The individual parts of the Allison series were produced to a high degree of standardization and reliability, using the best technology available at the time."
I believe you are paraphrasing one pilot, Werner Molders, who had one point of reference: the Bf109, a fighter renowned for its difficulty in landing and take-off
Yes, the P-40 was nothing like as good in this respect as that other unglamorous work-horse, the Hurricane. But I was thinking as much of serviceability as flying characteristics. I can't see any way the splayed undercarriage of the Spitfire is going to be as forgiving of heavy landings of rough sufaces as the (somewhat) wider, up and down gear on the P-40, especially given the Kittyhawks reputation for toughness in adverse conditions. Also, I believe the P-40 had more prop to ground clearance, which was an issue with the Spit
The RNZAF, who absorbed the hard learned tactics of the US pilots flew plenty of ground attack and pure fighter missions with their small force of P-40s through to 1944, and were credited with something like a hundred Japanese fighters destroyed for a fraction of the losses in return. So it seems they were still up to it. Had they Japanese been able to field numbers of their later designs the story might have been different, but they didn't and it wasn't.
Whereas the Spitfire ticks the interceptor box but not much else?
Yes. The Spit became much more effective once it started using the tactics the Americans were already using with their P-40sOnce it the right tactics were used it became much more efective
I believe that once the early warning system was in place the P-40s were typically able to attack from above also, and took a significant toll on both Japanese Bombers and fighters
Something, yes. Just nowhere near as much as the ability to carry more bombs much further.
...
Yep, if nothing else US industrial might was bound to make a huge difference to supply. But the P-40 had other big advantages - I know Wiki is not everybody's favourite reference source so feel free to refute the following quote: "Comparisons between Allison engine and the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine are inevitable. What can be said for the Allison is that it made more power at less boost with a longer time between overhauls and the part count was nearly half that of the Merlin engine which facilitated mass production greatly. The British-made Merlin engines were still reliant upon hand-crafted and fitted parts from skilled craftsmen, something which was corrected by the redesign and success of the Packard V-1650 license-produced version of it in the United States, built with American production-line techniques. There also was a high degree of commonality of parts throughout the series. The individual parts of the Allison series were produced to a high degree of standardization and reliability, using the best technology available at the time."
...
I'll just address the bolded part. Stating that, presumably single-stage, 'Allison made more power at less boost' is screen and mirrors. What counts here (V-1710-39 (P-40D/E) vs Merlin 45/46/50 (Spit V)) is how much power was available for the prop at any given altitude. Here the V-1710 was a tad better between SL and 5-6000 ft, above that altitude those Merlins give more power.
and it required highly skilled technicians to maintain it.
Maybe I feel a certain empathy for the P-40, being so ugly, underappreciated and all (*sob*).
Crikey you are living dangerously saying the P40 is ugly, don't be surprised if you wake up one night and find dozens of Americans stood outside your house carrying burning torches.
What version of Spitfire was that? Metal ailerons or fabric?...
Wuzak, the point for point format is making me dizzy so perhaps as a courtesy to everyone else we should abandon it. In defence of my countrymen I'd iterate that I said the RNZAF used the P-40 through to 1944, when there was still plenty of stiff opposition from the Japanese. And they did very well as I'm sure you would acknowledge.
One thing we can all learn from this discussion; if you want to start a thread with legs, diss the Spit, even if only implicity!
Maybe I feel a certain empathy for the P-40, being so ugly, underappreciated and all
Wuzak, the point for point format is making me dizzy so perhaps as a courtesy to everyone else we should abandon it.
Spit Mk I, as CobberKain wrote, with fabric covered ailerons vs Curtiss Hawk H-75A-1 loaned from the French AF.