Top Ten Twin-Engine Fighters of World War II

GrauGeist · Mar 30, 2022

The problem with these "lists" on various sites, is that they go for readership.

The interwebs is flooded with "top ten best...", "top ten worst..." and so on with no real substance or any authoritive context.
The OP's artical is all over the place in regards to types and their roles, many of which would have been dead meat against true twin engined fighters - for example: a Ju88 would not have a snowball's chance in hell against a Whirlwind.

nuuumannn · Mar 30, 2022

Howard Gibson said:
Note once again, the photo of the Mosquito, which appears to be a photo reconnaissance version with American markings.

To be fair to the writer, the Mosquito image comes directly after the following two sentences:

"At the outset, four roles were foreseen for the aircraft: Bomber; Reconnaissance and Day or Night-fighter. To these roles were eventually added Fighter-Bomber; Night Intruder; Pathfinder; Maritime strike; Trainer and finally, Target Tug."

An outline of roles the aircraft fulfilled, to which the image of a US operated PR version fits.

The article is not that badly researched, Howard, you might want to read the listing of sources below each segment, as well as learning about the author, who was a military specialist and technical advisor to the British Embassy in Washington DC, which gave him access to lots of military stuff over there. This means he's not just some armchair expert.

Escuadrilla Azul · Mar 30, 2022

drgondog said:
The Bf 110, 210 and 410 were helpless against the P-51B and the ZG units were forced to convert to Fw 190A-8 because there was no safe haven in the Reich.

Ajá.

Encumbered by heavy antibomber weaponry against a year latter s.e. fighter. So? Do I say they were inmune?

My point is that precisely in the eastern theater the 110 was used as a fighter fighting s.e. fighters for long after usual or common aircraft wisdom of WWII say it was retired from that role. BTW, fighting the enhaced Hurricanes (amongst other types) that helped to defeat them in BoB in the fighter role.

Perhaps the 110 was the earliest example of the nazi zombies, those that come back from the deads and, thus, a pop myth was born.

Howard Gibson said:
Maybe the Bf-110s had tactical surprise. I would expect casualties in air combat to vary wildly from combat to combat. A single incident does not prove anything.

Most Spitfires in the desert had those big, ugly air filters below the nose, which took something like 20mph off the top speed. Maybe they were inferior.

Maybe the Bf 110 got the tactical surprise but, as I said, my recall is the opposite. Anyway, in that case, how much confidence did the 110 pilots have if they had surprise to tackle a superior force in numbers in a superior aircraft? An unlikely behaviour with a plane that was that allegedly totally trashed 2 years before.

True that the desert filter was a handicap but, enough to make a desert Mk. V worst than a Mk. I in BoB?

Of course, a single incident don't prove anything, just that the 110 wasn't the total rubish underdog many think it was.

Edited for some typos.

at6 · Mar 30, 2022

Are we asking about piston or jet powered aircraft? If piston powered that would almost certainly be the P-38. The Mosquito was no dog fighter unlike the P-38 which could perform many of the same rolls. If it's jet powered aircraft, there is a toss up between the ME 262 and The Meteor. I leave the Heinkel aircraft out since no twin engined jet from them entered production. We should be glad that Hitler failed to see the advantage that Heinkel design offered. I must admit that the ME 262 was a bit more advanced due to the swept wing configuration.

Jagdflieger · Mar 30, 2022

at6 said:
Are we asking about piston or jet powered aircraft? If piston powered that would almost certainly be the P-38. The Mosquito was no dog fighter unlike the P-38 which could perform many of the same rolls. If it's jet powered aircraft, there is a toss up between the ME 262 and The Meteor. I leave the Heinkel aircraft out since no twin engined jet from them entered production. We should be glad that Hitler failed to see the advantage that Heinkel design offered. I must admit that the ME 262 was a bit more advanced due to the swept wing configuration.

Doesn't matter does it?- the headline is about twin engine fighters - doesn't say twin prop. - that is why I had also brought in the Meteor.

Regards
Jagdflieger

drgondog · Mar 30, 2022

Escuadrilla Azul said:
Ajá.

Encumbered by heavy antibomber weaponry against a year latter s.e. fighter. So? Do I say they were inmune?

My point is that precisely in the eastern theater the 110 was used as a fighter fighting s.e. fighters for long after usual or common aircraft wisdom of WWII say it was retired from that role. BTW, fighting the enhaced Hurricanes (amongst other types) that helped to defeat them in BoB in the fighter role.

Perhaps the 110 was the earliest example of the nazi zombies, those that come back from the deads and, thus, a pop myth was born.

Maybe the Bf 110 got the tactical surprise but, as I said, my recall is the opposite. Anyway, in that case, how much confidence did the 110 pilots have if they had surprise to tackle a superior force in numbers in a superior aircraft? An unlikely behaviour with a plane that was that allegedly totally trashed 2 years before.

True that the desert filter was a handicap but, enough to make a desert Mk. V worst than a Mk. I in BoB?

Of course, a single incident don't prove anything, just that the 110 wasn't the total rubish underdog many think it was.

Edited for some typos.

Simple fact - for 1943 and beyond, the Bf 110 could not evade a fight when engaged against Spitfire, P-51, P-38, P-47. No manuever feature was superior, top speed far below antagonist, dive speed inadequate. Sole defense was rear gunner in a maneuver fight. Great bomber killer - when unmolested by s/e fighters.

swampyankee · Mar 30, 2022

at6 said:
Are we asking about piston or jet powered aircraft? If piston powered that would almost certainly be the P-38. The Mosquito was no dog fighter unlike the P-38 which could perform many of the same rolls. If it's jet powered aircraft, there is a toss up between the ME 262 and The Meteor. I leave the Heinkel aircraft out since no twin engined jet from them entered production. We should be glad that Hitler failed to see the advantage that Heinkel design offered. I must admit that the ME 262 was a bit more advanced due to the swept wing configuration.

...except the Me262's wing wasn't because of high-speed aerodynamics; it was because of C/G issues that appeared late in the design process.

Vincenzo · Mar 30, 2022

drgondog said:
Simple fact - for 1943 and beyond, the Bf 110 could not evade a fight when engaged against Spitfire, P-51, P-38, P-47. No manuever feature was superior, top speed far below antagonist, dive speed inadequate. Sole defense was rear gunner in a maneuver fight. Great bomber killer - when unmolested by s/e fighters.

But this was true for all the multiplace twin engine fighter

GrauGeist · Mar 30, 2022

Jagdflieger said:
Doesn't matter does it?- the headline is about twin engine fighters - doesn't say twin prop. - that is why I had also brought in the Meteor.

Regards
Jagdflieger

The closest that the Meteor came to combat in Europe, was 616 Sqd's airfield being bombed by Ar234s.

Jagdflieger · Mar 30, 2022

Vincenzo said:
But this was true for all the multiplace twin engine fighter

Not necessarily e.g. a Me 262 swooooof - takatakatakatakataka (30mm) and wooooosh back home

Oh wait, the taka,taka,taka,taka was a Spit, so bomm,bomm,bomm,bomm for the 30mm and wooooosh

Regards
Jagdlieger

Jagdflieger · Mar 30, 2022

GrauGeist said:
The closest that the Meteor came to combat in Europe, was 616 Sqd's airfield being bombed by Ar234s.

Oh come on be fair - a Meteor made a Fieseler Storch perform a forced landing and then destroyed it on the ground. okay,okay
Plus another 50-60 Luftwaffe aircraft's on the ground and a dozen or more V1's. Besides an own midair collison involving two Meteors, none were lost due to combat. The aircraft was severely restricted to perform missions, due to being ordered not to fly into German held territory.

Regards
Jagdflieger

GrauGeist · Mar 30, 2022

Well, the Meteors were mistaken for Me262s and shot at by Allied AA, so there was sort of a combat element, I suppose.

Escuadrilla Azul · Mar 30, 2022

drgondog said:
Simple fact - for 1943 and beyond, the Bf 110 could not evade a fight when engaged against Spitfire, P-51, P-38, P-47. No manuever feature was superior, top speed far below antagonist, dive speed inadequate. Sole defense was rear gunner in a maneuver fight. Great bomber killer - when unmolested by s/e fighters.

Simple fact, the bold part seems to became hidden some how.

Escuadrilla Azul said:
Hi J Jagdflieger and wellcome to the forum.

In the eastern front the Bf 110 lingered as a fighter for long. Don't forget about JG 77 and JG 5 Eismer and its zërstorer staffels.

They were used both in offense and defence, performing Frei Jagd against the soviets well in to 1942 and dealing with s.e. fighters and making some aces in the process, like Theodor wWeissenberger and Felix María Brandis, amongst others.

SaparotRob · Mar 30, 2022

Jagdflieger said:
Not necessarily e.g. a Me 262 swooooof - takatakatakatakataka (30mm) and wooooosh back home

Oh wait, the taka,taka,taka,taka was a Spit, so bomm,bomm,bomm,bomm for the 30mm and wooooosh

Regards
Jagdlieger

There would have been a lot of replies had you not caught that error yourself.

drgondog · Mar 30, 2022

Escuadrilla Azul said:
Simple fact, the bold part seems to became hidden some how.

??? 'became hidden somehow' ???

Escuadrilla Azul · Mar 30, 2022

drgondog said:
??? 'became hidden somehow' ???

Must be.

Cos while I said "a performing Frei Jagd against the soviets well in to 1942 and dealing with s.e. fighters" you said "for 1943 and beyond, the Bf 110 could not evade a fight when engaged against Spitfire, P-51, P-38, P-47".

And before that you answered this to my post about the use of 110 in the USSR.

drgondog said:
The Bf 110, 210 and 410 were helpless against the P-51B and the ZG units were forced to convert to Fw 190A-8 because there was no safe haven in the Reich.

Frankly, I must had missed something in the relation between the air war in the USSR in 1942 and the war over western Europe in 1943 cos can't see the need to bring the P-51B in this case.

drgondog · Mar 30, 2022

Escuadrilla Azul said:
Must be.

Cos while I said "a performing Frei Jagd against the soviets well in to 1942 and dealing with s.e. fighters" you said "for 1943 and beyond, the Bf 110 could not evade a fight when engaged against Spitfire, P-51, P-38, P-47".

And before that you answered this to my post about the use of 110 in the USSR.

Frankly, I must had missed something in the relation between the air war in the USSR in 1942 and the war over western Europe in 1943 cos can't see the need to bring the P-51B in this case.

In response to your thesis that the Bf 110 was a capable air fighter against good Allied s/e fighters. It wasn't - Ost or Sud or West.

Vincenzo · Mar 30, 2022

Jagdflieger said:
Not necessarily e.g. a Me 262 swooooof - takatakatakatakataka (30mm) and wooooosh back home

Oh wait, the taka,taka,taka,taka was a Spit, so bomm,bomm,bomm,bomm for the 30mm and wooooosh

Regards
Jagdlieger

multiplace

GregP · Mar 30, 2022

Vincenzo said:
But this was true for all the multiplace twin engine fighter

Not for the P-38. It was pretty decent regardless of the competition, especially from the P-38J-25, when hydraulic aileron boost was added. It could turn tighter than quite few S/E fighters, especially when combat flaps were used, and had no issues with gun harmonization since they all fired straight forward. As the Germans often said, one in the fuselage worth two in the wings, and the P-38 had 4 50-cal MG and one cannon all in the nose. You were in trouble if you intersected the bullet stream of a P-38.

Of course, this all assumes the P-38 in question is fighting after the fuel vaporization issues in the intake manifolds were solved. That would be from about Jun 43 or so.

Vincenzo · Mar 30, 2022

GregP said:
Not for the P-38. It was pretty decent regardless of the competition, especially from the P-38J-25, when hydraulic aileron boost was added. It could turn tighter than quite few S/E fighters, especially when combat flaps were used, and had no issues with gun harmonization since they all fired straight forward. As the Germans often said, one in the fuselage worth two in the wings, and the P-38 had 4 50-cal MG and one cannon all in the nose. You were in trouble if you intersected the bullet stream of a P-38.

Of course, this all assumes the P-38 in question is fighting after the fuel vaporization issues in the intake manifolds were solved. That would be from about Jun 43 or so.

multiplace

Top Ten Twin-Engine Fighters of World War II

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