TRAITOR!

NEWCASTLE, Australia — U.S. Marine Corps veteran Daniel Duggan will be extradited from Australia to the United States over allegations that he illegally trained Chinese aviators.

Australia's Attorney General Mark Dreyfus approved the extradition on Monday, ending the Boston-born 55-year-old's nearly two-year attempt to avoid being returned to the U.S.

Duggan, who served in the Marines for 12 years before immigrating to Australia and giving up his U.S. citizenship, has been in a maximum-security prison since he was arrested in 2022 at his family home in the state of New South Wales. He is the father of six children.

Dreyfus confirmed in a statement on Monday he had approved the extradition but did not say when Duggan would be transferred to the U.S.

"Duggan was given the opportunity to provide representations as to why he should not be surrendered to the United States. In arriving at my decision, I took into consideration all material in front of me," Dreyfus said in the statement.

GTX said:

Having watched the 60 Minutes video in question, it was utter crap. That said, the discussion amongst these ex-pilots is interesting:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POwxWIyV0oY

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As a former Marine Harrier guy, I was triggered by the snide reactions of the fighter guys in this video, but I have to agree with them. What I know about carrier operations wouldn't fill a decent sized cocktail napkin, and most of that I've forgotten anyway. Trying to think of what this guy could've been teaching the Chinese (who, by the way, are famous for hacking into DOD servers and stealing the plans for our new fighters before they hit the prototype stages), and coming up with "not much."

GrauGeist said:

Reading the article (I read Reuters which has comparable sources and coverage - regardless of private or corporate ownership) clearly stated the law(s) violated and when the law restricting military exchange was enacted (2010, by the way) and the fact that the asshat had a Beiijing residence as well as one in Australia and the U.S.

He was an Australia citizen and even though renounced his U.S. citizenship, is still legally a U.S. citizen.

Providing his knowledge of carrier air proceedure to a potential enemy is an act of treason - this not only enables an improvement of Chinese carrier doctrine, but provides the Chinese information on USN/USMC ops.

Hang the MoFo.

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If he renounced his US citizenship in the proper manner, he's no longer a US citizen. The US fought a war based on the right for people to renounce their citizenship, so it would be hypocritical (but not that surprising) for the US to have laws preventing such renunciation.

Retattack said:

As a former Marine Harrier guy, I was triggered by the snide reactions of the fighter guys in this video, but I have to agree with them. What I know about carrier operations wouldn't fill a decent sized cocktail napkin, and most of that I've forgotten anyway. Trying to think of what this guy could've been teaching the Chinese (who, by the way, are famous for hacking into DOD servers and stealing the plans for our new fighters before they hit the prototype stages), and coming up with "not much."

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As a former USMC A-6E maintenance tech whose squadron spent some 4 years as part of CVW-2 aboard CV-61 Ranger, with multiple deployments to the far east & Indian Ocean in 1986, 87, 88, & 89, I can confidently state that some USMC pilots do indeed have full knowledge of US aircraft carrier procedures, practices, etc.

Remember that for at least the last 20 years* the USMC has been required to earmark 4 F/A-18 squadrons for carrier deployments (since the USN wouldn't fully staff their air wings), so it is quite likely that he had fairly current knowledge of those procedures, practices, etc.


* The USMC still has to provide those 4 squadrons in the future after fully transitioning to F-35s, hence their equipping 4 squadrons with F-35Cs... and they recently announced that they would equip with F-35C 2 squadrons that had been planned to get F-35Bs, resulting in the USMC operating 12 active F-35B and 6 F-35C squadrons (and 2 reserve F-35B squadrons) once the transition is complete.

VMFA-314 with F-35Cs has deployed with CV-72 Lincoln in 2022 & 2024 in the western Pacific - with the 2024 deployment including the Indian Ocean and participating in the air strikes against Houthi targets.

GreenKnight121 said:

As a former USMC A-6E maintenance tech whose squadron spent some 4 years as part of CVW-2 aboard CV-61 Ranger, with multiple deployments to the far east & Indian Ocean in 1986, 87, 88, & 89, I can confidently state that some USMC pilots do indeed have full knowledge of US aircraft carrier procedures, practices, etc.

Remember that for at least the last 20 years* the USMC has been required to earmark 4 F/A-18 squadrons for carrier deployments (since the USN wouldn't fully staff their air wings), so it is quite likely that he had fairly current knowledge of those procedures, practices, etc.


* The USMC still has to provide those 4 squadrons in the future after fully transitioning to F-35s, hence their equipping 4 squadrons with F-35Cs... and they recently announced that they would equip with F-35C 2 squadrons that had been planned to get F-35Bs, resulting in the USMC operating 12 F-35B and 6 F-35C squadrons once the transition is complete.

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With due respect to your experience, things have changed. For the last twenty plus years, the only Marines who fly on the big decks are F-18 pilots. Harrier guys fly on the LHA/LHDs, which are completely different. There is very little crossover between communities (and Duggan wasn't one of the few who did.)

I qualified in T-2s and then A-4s in 1982, and that's the last time I saw a big deck. I looked up Duggan's bio, and he was ten years behind me with less experience. He apparently was an LSO (again, on amphibs), but the idea that he's teaching carrier ops is what had Mover/Gonky/Wombat (appropriately, IMO) laughing.

I also looked up the indictment, which is here. The only thing I can see that might be the least bit sensitive is export controls on the T-2. (Though the T-2 itself is obviously antiquated.) As the fighter guys in the video noted, the CV NATOPS isn't classified. I found a copy with ten seconds of googling, here, and has a whole lot more detail than the classes the indictment said he was teaching. I don't know if this is overzealous prosecution, or if they're mad about something else and this is the equivalent of Scarface's tax returns, but as written, it makes very little sense.

Retattack said:

With due respect to your experience, things have changed. For the last twenty plus years, the only Marines who fly on the big decks are F-18 pilots. Harrier guys fly on the LHA/LHDs, which are completely different. There is very little crossover between communities (and Duggan wasn't one of the few who did.)

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VFMA 314 is currently flying F-35C's off the Abraham Lincoln, off the coast of Yemen.

cvairwerks said:

VFMA 314 is currently flying F-35C's off the Abraham Lincoln, off the coast of Yemen.

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Yes, it's changing again, F-18s are going away and being replaced by F-35Cs (VMFA-314 is the first to undergo transition). I expect the new order will be the old fighter squadrons flying F-35Cs aboard the big decks and old attack squadrons flying F-35Bs aboard the amphibs. But the airplanes are so similar you'd expect some intermixing of pilots. And they'll all be designated VMFA, and VMA will go away.

But Duggan was a Harrier guy, operated off amphibs, and is no CV expert.

swampyankee said:

If he renounced his US citizenship in the proper manner, he's no longer a US citizen. The US fought a war based on the right for people to renounce their citizenship, so it would be hypocritical (but not that surprising) for the US to have laws preventing such renunciation.

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First up, renouncing his citizenship has nothing to do with ITAR and AECA violations, which is what he is being charged with. You do not have to be an American citizen to be in violation of those regulations, all you have to do is export (from the US) your knowledge and, in this case, provide "defense services" (including militarily relevant training). Obviously, there could be a jurisdictional issue, but since he was a US citizen when he received the training that he used to provide those defense services, I don't think it is a problem. He got that training as a US citizen, from the US government, at US government expense, and then exported that knowledge to a prohibited nation without authorization. For everyone saying "he could not have known anything classified or important", it does not matter. As near as I can tell he is not being charged with distribution of classified information, him improving their military readiness by providing unauthorized defense oriented training is more than enough. Even if he trained them badly, actually worsening their readiness, it would still be a violation of the stated codes.

Next, as to renouncing his citizenship. As best as I can determine from a quick web search, he did so in 2016, backdating it to 2012, after he was already being investigated. But the conspiracy to do what he did allegedly started in 2009, inside the US. It looks like, by 2011 he had already traveled to China in preparation of providing training, and by late 2011 he was providing training in the form of generating training documents, and being paid for providing those training services. Allegedly. Assuming the dates I see for his renounced citizenship are correct, and assuming the government can prove the allegations in the Affidavit, then he was a US cit while doing some of what he did, and he did violate the laws as they existed at the time. A case could maybe be made that he fled the country to avoid prosecution, and to further his criminal enterprise, which I think might be further charges.

He literally sold out his country (providing military training and defense services to a primary peer advisory), for money. He did so after taking an oath to protect his birth nation and to follow its laws. The potential for there to be classified information involved does not matter in the least.

T!

Retattack said:

Yes, it's changing again, F-18s are going away and being replaced by F-35Cs (VMFA-314 is the first to undergo transition). I expect the new order will be the old fighter squadrons flying F-35Cs aboard the big decks and old attack squadrons flying F-35Bs aboard the amphibs. But the airplanes are so similar you'd expect some intermixing of pilots. And they'll all be designated VMFA, and VMA will go away.

But Duggan was a Harrier guy, operated off amphibs, and is no CV expert.

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There were only 6 AV-8B squadrons and 12 (+1 reserve) F/A-18 squadrons (there were more AV-8B squadrons before ~2010 but a couple were completely shut down before 2014).
There will be 6 F-35C and 12 (+2 reserve) F-35B squadrons (the second reserve F-35B squadron will be a revived squadron - VMFA-134 was a former F/A-18 squadron which had been disbanded 1 April 2007).

If you look at the most recent Marine Transition Plan I could find (2022) you will see one former AV-8B squadron (VMA-311) that has already transitioned to F-35Cs - the other 5 are/will be flying F-35Bs. The dark gray bars are/were AV-8B squadrons and the light gray are/were F/A-18 squadrons.

Of the 12 active F/A-18 squadrons 5 are/will be flying F-35Cs and the other 7 (and both reserve F/A-18 squadrons) are/will be flying F-35Bs.

This plan seems to be current except that VMFA-232 & VMFA 323 will get F-35Cs instead of F-35Bs.
Note that VMFA-251 received its first F-35C in September of this year and VMFA-533 received its first F-35B in October this year.

GreenKnight121 said:

There were only 6 AV-8B squadrons and 12 (+1 reserve) F/A-18 squadrons (there were more AV-8B squadrons before ~2010 but a couple were completely shut down before 2014).

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Thanks for the transition plan, that's interesting.

Back in the day, the T/O for light attack was 8 squadrons of 19 aircraft. I asked my first OpsO "why 19?" and he said "it used to be 20, but we crashed some." When we converted to Harriers, about ten years later, it was back to 8x20 (at least initially). By the time the transition was complete, it was obvious we were crashing Harriers a lot faster, and we went to 8x16 in a few (5?) years. Then they decided to put a 6 plane boat det on every MEU, and were reorganizing to 10 plane squadrons to support them.

The LA Times had a scathing story that was actually pretty accurate:

GreenKnight121 said:

If you look at the most recent Marine Transition Plan I could find (2022) you will see one former AV-8B squadron (VMA-311) that has already transitioned to F-35Cs

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Not sure if that qualifies as a "transition." VMA-311 was decommissioned four years ago, they reactivated it (as a VMFA). The squadron numbers don't really mean anything, they generally use the ones that have historical significance. (311's claim to fame is most fixed wing sorties in a conflict in VN.) But it's now a fighter squadron, in a fighter group (MAG-11), with only the name and patch in common with the old one.