Twin Engine Fighters
- Thread starter GregP
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kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Sure, with the potential modifications to the airframe of continued development for another 3-4 years, lots of things could be possible. (6 MG 151/20s or 4 MK 108s doesn't seem unreasonable either: by no means a drop-in mounting in the existing 1939 airframe, but it seems plausible -I'd think bulk in horizontal dimensions for the guns+ammo would be more the factor for MK 108s than weight or recoil, but two in the cheeks/sides and two in the lower nose/belly seems realistic, perhaps with some bulges)
The 'more MG FFs' suggestion was more for the 1939-1941 context, including something that might make pique RLM interest in the bomber-destroyer role. (4 or 6 MG FFs without in-flight re-loading would offer some serious considerations compared to the Bf 110 -as it was, the Fw 187A-0 DID have a weaker offensive armament than the Bf 110C)
Bear in mind that MG FFs are considerably lighter (slightly lighter than .50 M2s) and had significantly lighter and smoother recoil than MG 151/20s, so not just a matter of being available sooner, but also putting less stress on the airframe. (there's a reason MG 151/20s couldn't just be dropped inside Bf 109 wings or Fw 190 outer wings, at least not without some modification)
Just Schmidt
Senior Airman
Any other twins you like out there?[/QUOTE]
Disclaimer: the reasons I like a particular design isn't always connevted to the fact that it did/could influence the war in a decisive way.
I like a lot of twins, and those you mentioned, but also a few other japanese in particular the Ki 45.
Not a bad design, it was effective in many roles but the escort fighter it was actually designed for. And asking how many mustangs it shot down is kind of like asking a pretty lightly dressed young woman if she can actually sing...
I like the whole family springing from it. Not exactly the Fw 187 of japan, I still think not producing the one seat Ki 96 a mistake.
The Ki 102 was at least partly consieved as a fighter, and like the final member of the family, Ki 108 also pleases the eye. Though the 102 did enter production, most Ki 102 (if not all, and primarily ground attack version) was held in reserve for the anticipated invasion.
Good, but freakish looking was also the fighter version of the Ki 46 III. It looks like the 37 mm cannon was to big for that kind of installation in an airframe that was designed as a high speed reconnaisance aircreft. And it was.
Only operational as a fighter in few examples, at least the Pe 2 was originally designed as a fighter, So I get an excuse for at least mentioning one of my favorite twins of the whole conflict.
Finally I wish to note that the Fw 187 certainly was a fine aircraft and in all probability an opportunity missed. I do however question how much further potential it had. Much of its startling performance stemmed from its very slim fuselage, neccessitating that some of the instruments be placed on the engine nacelles. Already it had guns mounted in bulges in the fuselage. At least it dosn't seem unproblematic adding more avionics and armament without hurting performance (and not only from added weight). I really doubt it could have worked well as a night fighter without a new and bigger fuselage.
Disclaimer: the reasons I like a particular design isn't always connevted to the fact that it did/could influence the war in a decisive way.
I like a lot of twins, and those you mentioned, but also a few other japanese in particular the Ki 45.
Not a bad design, it was effective in many roles but the escort fighter it was actually designed for. And asking how many mustangs it shot down is kind of like asking a pretty lightly dressed young woman if she can actually sing...
I like the whole family springing from it. Not exactly the Fw 187 of japan, I still think not producing the one seat Ki 96 a mistake.
The Ki 102 was at least partly consieved as a fighter, and like the final member of the family, Ki 108 also pleases the eye. Though the 102 did enter production, most Ki 102 (if not all, and primarily ground attack version) was held in reserve for the anticipated invasion.
Good, but freakish looking was also the fighter version of the Ki 46 III. It looks like the 37 mm cannon was to big for that kind of installation in an airframe that was designed as a high speed reconnaisance aircreft. And it was.
Only operational as a fighter in few examples, at least the Pe 2 was originally designed as a fighter, So I get an excuse for at least mentioning one of my favorite twins of the whole conflict.
Finally I wish to note that the Fw 187 certainly was a fine aircraft and in all probability an opportunity missed. I do however question how much further potential it had. Much of its startling performance stemmed from its very slim fuselage, neccessitating that some of the instruments be placed on the engine nacelles. Already it had guns mounted in bulges in the fuselage. At least it dosn't seem unproblematic adding more avionics and armament without hurting performance (and not only from added weight). I really doubt it could have worked well as a night fighter without a new and bigger fuselage.
- Thread starter
- #84
GregP
Major
I can say this about the Fw 187. Germany was in need of its own "Mosquito," and the people in power actually making the decisions didn't see that in the Fw 187 ... and those were the very guys who needed it. So, a bit later when the need became great, none of them thought the Fw 187 was worth even resurrecting.
So I have a hard time understanding why all this after-the-fact-praise is heaped upon it when the very armed forces who created it out of a rtequirment decided it wasn't worth production.
I'd say they were a LOT closer to the real facts of the aircraft than we are.
It doesn't stop me from liking the Fw 187, but liking it and saying it was a large missed opportunity are two different things. The RLM had a solid-performing airframe and they decided the Fw 187 had no function they needed. That could have been political, and it wouldn't be alone there, it could have been personal animosity, it could have been many things, but the RLM elected not to procure it.
I can say the same for a number of otherwise-apparently-first-class aircraft in the USA and other countries that also were not procured. Curtiss-Wright got out of the airplane business when the XF-87 Blackhawk was not accepted ... and it met the spec it was designed for. Northrop never sold an F-20 Tigershark and it more than met it's design goals. The F-23 was not selected for production and it was the only one of the two submitted types that met the stealth spec. The F-22 didn't and doesn't. When the F-22 didn't meet the stealth spec, the government's answer was to lower the stealth spec. The XP-40Q was a solid airplane. The XP-72 looked like one, too. The list is long and distinguished.
Nice selection of twins, Just Schmidt. I like 'em too.
So I have a hard time understanding why all this after-the-fact-praise is heaped upon it when the very armed forces who created it out of a rtequirment decided it wasn't worth production.
I'd say they were a LOT closer to the real facts of the aircraft than we are.
It doesn't stop me from liking the Fw 187, but liking it and saying it was a large missed opportunity are two different things. The RLM had a solid-performing airframe and they decided the Fw 187 had no function they needed. That could have been political, and it wouldn't be alone there, it could have been personal animosity, it could have been many things, but the RLM elected not to procure it.
I can say the same for a number of otherwise-apparently-first-class aircraft in the USA and other countries that also were not procured. Curtiss-Wright got out of the airplane business when the XF-87 Blackhawk was not accepted ... and it met the spec it was designed for. Northrop never sold an F-20 Tigershark and it more than met it's design goals. The F-23 was not selected for production and it was the only one of the two submitted types that met the stealth spec. The F-22 didn't and doesn't. When the F-22 didn't meet the stealth spec, the government's answer was to lower the stealth spec. The XP-40Q was a solid airplane. The XP-72 looked like one, too. The list is long and distinguished.
Nice selection of twins, Just Schmidt. I like 'em too.
The mosquito fighter bomber was already fitted with 4 x .303 in the nose. I wasnt thinking about a turret with 180 degree coverage but a smaller arrangement of about +/- 30 degrees.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
But with the additional weight and drag, there will be a performance penalty and for what offensive gain?
Also, if you look at the effectiveness of the bomber's turrets against enemy aircraft in combat, you'll see they required a great deal of rounds expended in order to score hits. This was on much slower, steady flying bombers. Now put a turret on a much smaller aircraft, placed in a fluid combat situation and I imagine it would be virtually impossible to train the weapons on an enemy and register effective hits.
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
GregP, just because the RLM didn't opt for it, doesn't mean that it was the right decision. The Techniches Amt under Udet wasn't the most competent.
Shortround6
Major General
The FW 187 is viewed by it's adherents much the same (only more so) as the Whirlwind and it's supporters. Trouble is the FW 187 has about zero combat experience to look at, and no real world numbers with the engines it's fans propose to use.
They also want to split it into 2 or 3 different lines of development.
Some want to call it the German Mosquito. In actual fact the Mosquito was bigger than the Bf 110 even if only slightly (it was certainly heavier most of the time) but this allowed for the internal/low drag carriage of bombs and a large quantity of internal fuel. A Fw 187 "bomber" would be slower and shorter ranged. Some say it would have been a good night fighter, but that would have required a modified nose/cockpit. Germans thought the He 219 had too small a cockpit. The Bf 11 had been designed to hold 3 men, not carried in some roles but the capability (cockpit size) was there for extra equipment/crew. It wasn't there on the FW 187s that were built.
Some say it could have been the German P-38. Much closer in size and a possibility. But a bit more limited for multi-roles.
Some say it should have stayed a single seater and been the German P-51 (long range escort fighter). These two need an alteration in timing. The FW 187 was being built in 1938/39. In those years the German radios for single seat fighters were rather limited. Even during th eBoB the 109s could seldom (if ever) talk (communicate) with the bombers and at certain distances could no longer talk to the ground stations. Not a good recipe for an escort fighter. The Drum fed 20mm MG/ff cannon present a problem in combat duration in 1939/40 and early 1941 too, You may have the fuel for deep escort but if the cannon are out of ammo after the first encounter you have a rather limited escort fighter. By 1941 when the belt fed German cannon come into service (and 15mm to start with) the FW 187 is about 1 1/2 to 2 years old. It was no longer competing with the Bf 110 but the Me 210 (or what they thought the ME 210 could do) and the 109 had under gone an aerodynamic clean up that pretty much closed the gap between the 109 performance and what a DB 601 powered FW 187 could do except for range. The Addition of the drop tank and the better aerodynamics extended the range of the 109 quite a bit and aside from the He 111 the Germans didn't have that many long range bombers that needed escorting at longer distances.
Now I will admit that the Germans were working on the Belt fed cannon for quite some time and proposed aircraft in 1939 show them in drawings. However they were late showing up and any plane that depended on the new guns would have been in trouble in service.
A lot of times a planes success (or failure) is linked to behind the scenes stuff like radios/communications and combat duration ( Fulmars had lousy performance but had enough fuel and ammo to make multiple interceptions in one flight. A higher performing plane that needed to land twice as often to refuel and re-arm might not have done so well in the circumstances the Fulmar faced).
They also want to split it into 2 or 3 different lines of development.
Some want to call it the German Mosquito. In actual fact the Mosquito was bigger than the Bf 110 even if only slightly (it was certainly heavier most of the time) but this allowed for the internal/low drag carriage of bombs and a large quantity of internal fuel. A Fw 187 "bomber" would be slower and shorter ranged. Some say it would have been a good night fighter, but that would have required a modified nose/cockpit. Germans thought the He 219 had too small a cockpit. The Bf 11 had been designed to hold 3 men, not carried in some roles but the capability (cockpit size) was there for extra equipment/crew. It wasn't there on the FW 187s that were built.
Some say it could have been the German P-38. Much closer in size and a possibility. But a bit more limited for multi-roles.
Some say it should have stayed a single seater and been the German P-51 (long range escort fighter). These two need an alteration in timing. The FW 187 was being built in 1938/39. In those years the German radios for single seat fighters were rather limited. Even during th eBoB the 109s could seldom (if ever) talk (communicate) with the bombers and at certain distances could no longer talk to the ground stations. Not a good recipe for an escort fighter. The Drum fed 20mm MG/ff cannon present a problem in combat duration in 1939/40 and early 1941 too, You may have the fuel for deep escort but if the cannon are out of ammo after the first encounter you have a rather limited escort fighter. By 1941 when the belt fed German cannon come into service (and 15mm to start with) the FW 187 is about 1 1/2 to 2 years old. It was no longer competing with the Bf 110 but the Me 210 (or what they thought the ME 210 could do) and the 109 had under gone an aerodynamic clean up that pretty much closed the gap between the 109 performance and what a DB 601 powered FW 187 could do except for range. The Addition of the drop tank and the better aerodynamics extended the range of the 109 quite a bit and aside from the He 111 the Germans didn't have that many long range bombers that needed escorting at longer distances.
Now I will admit that the Germans were working on the Belt fed cannon for quite some time and proposed aircraft in 1939 show them in drawings. However they were late showing up and any plane that depended on the new guns would have been in trouble in service.
A lot of times a planes success (or failure) is linked to behind the scenes stuff like radios/communications and combat duration ( Fulmars had lousy performance but had enough fuel and ammo to make multiple interceptions in one flight. A higher performing plane that needed to land twice as often to refuel and re-arm might not have done so well in the circumstances the Fulmar faced).
cherry blossom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 23, 2007
I am a DB 601 Fw 187 fanboy for the specific circumstances of the Battle of Britain. Clearly the issues of radio and combat persistence are important and it was the issue of the radio that caused the rejection of the single seat Fw 187. However, a He 111 could have easily carried a fighter type radio in addition to its longer ranged radio and could thus have communicated with single seat escorts.
The issue of combat persistence would have prevented a 1940 Fw 187 armed with the MG FF from escorting American bombers from Britain to Berlin. However, there were many targets for the Luftwaffe on the east coast of the British Isles from Scarpa Flow in the North down to the Humber and including shipyards at Newcastle. The Royal Navy could not remove its ships from the east coast as long as there was an invasion threat. The port and ship building at Glasgow does involve a deeper penetration but not much more than to London in the South.
I agree that the Fw 187 would have been a worse nightfighter than the Bf 110 or the Ju 88. It would also have been unable to replace the Mosquito as a bomb truck (the Ju 288A might have been a good night bomber before it was redesigned). However, the Fw 187 could have carried bombs at least as far as the Fw 190, which saw extensive service dropping bombs by day and even by night.
The issue of combat persistence would have prevented a 1940 Fw 187 armed with the MG FF from escorting American bombers from Britain to Berlin. However, there were many targets for the Luftwaffe on the east coast of the British Isles from Scarpa Flow in the North down to the Humber and including shipyards at Newcastle. The Royal Navy could not remove its ships from the east coast as long as there was an invasion threat. The port and ship building at Glasgow does involve a deeper penetration but not much more than to London in the South.
I agree that the Fw 187 would have been a worse nightfighter than the Bf 110 or the Ju 88. It would also have been unable to replace the Mosquito as a bomb truck (the Ju 288A might have been a good night bomber before it was redesigned). However, the Fw 187 could have carried bombs at least as far as the Fw 190, which saw extensive service dropping bombs by day and even by night.
- Thread starter
- #90
GregP
Major
I maintain the people who cointinue to tout the Fw 187 can't come to the realization that the people making the decisions didn't opt for it. There is no circumstance or likely circumstance which can change that short of a different set of desision makers. If you DID have a different set of decision makers, there might not have been a BOB or a war at that time, so there's no way to predict what they might have done about the Fw 187. It's all fantasy.
Nothing wrong with a good fantasy novel about alternate history, but it has no meaning in the real world of what actually happened. Had they selected the Fw 187 for a role, then something else would not have been built that actually filled the role. To make even a good fantasy, you need to fill in the events and then come up with a proposal of how that might have affected things.
So, if we had different people in power, and if they had selected the Fw 187, when might the war have happened? And what developments might have taken place in the Allied world given the delay?
If the British had a full compliment of Spitfires when the war came, would the Fw 187 have made any difference at all? I have a very hard time thinking it would have changed anything unless the DB 601-powered variant were in service because then it could outrun the early Spitfires. But, again neing realistic, the British have a very distinguished record of coming up with solutions to close the performance gap when the Spitfire was, for a short while, outperformed. When the Fw 190 came out, it didn't take thenm long to catch up.
The British also would have had more and better radar, so the new Fw 187's would not have been able to sneak up un the UK any better than the real Luftwaffe did in the real event.
The only "what if" I can see that would realistically change the outcome is if Japan had somehow NOT attacked Pearl Harbor. Had they not done so, the USA might have stayed isolationist and might not have come into the war. In that event, with or without the Fw 187, the UK might have had a hard time getting food and war material into the country by sea. Surrender might have been a real possibility, not due to any failure of the RAF or the British people, but due to food or material shortages that would threaten national survival on a large scale.
The Fw 187 would have little effect on that area, and it is also entirely possible that the British might find a way around the shipping issue, even though delaying the war would have alloowed Doenitz to have a larger U-boat armada. It is also entirely possible the USA would have come into the war just to prevent the UK from going under had they not been somehow able to skirt the U-boat blocakade. I'd bet on the British here to find a way to stay in the fight; it's in their nature to put off addressing a political problem but also to lick it when it looms immediately at the door.
So I can't see the Fw 187 making any difference no matter what happened. But hey, I could be wrong and have been before.
Nothing wrong with a good fantasy novel about alternate history, but it has no meaning in the real world of what actually happened. Had they selected the Fw 187 for a role, then something else would not have been built that actually filled the role. To make even a good fantasy, you need to fill in the events and then come up with a proposal of how that might have affected things.
So, if we had different people in power, and if they had selected the Fw 187, when might the war have happened? And what developments might have taken place in the Allied world given the delay?
If the British had a full compliment of Spitfires when the war came, would the Fw 187 have made any difference at all? I have a very hard time thinking it would have changed anything unless the DB 601-powered variant were in service because then it could outrun the early Spitfires. But, again neing realistic, the British have a very distinguished record of coming up with solutions to close the performance gap when the Spitfire was, for a short while, outperformed. When the Fw 190 came out, it didn't take thenm long to catch up.
The British also would have had more and better radar, so the new Fw 187's would not have been able to sneak up un the UK any better than the real Luftwaffe did in the real event.
The only "what if" I can see that would realistically change the outcome is if Japan had somehow NOT attacked Pearl Harbor. Had they not done so, the USA might have stayed isolationist and might not have come into the war. In that event, with or without the Fw 187, the UK might have had a hard time getting food and war material into the country by sea. Surrender might have been a real possibility, not due to any failure of the RAF or the British people, but due to food or material shortages that would threaten national survival on a large scale.
The Fw 187 would have little effect on that area, and it is also entirely possible that the British might find a way around the shipping issue, even though delaying the war would have alloowed Doenitz to have a larger U-boat armada. It is also entirely possible the USA would have come into the war just to prevent the UK from going under had they not been somehow able to skirt the U-boat blocakade. I'd bet on the British here to find a way to stay in the fight; it's in their nature to put off addressing a political problem but also to lick it when it looms immediately at the door.
So I can't see the Fw 187 making any difference no matter what happened. But hey, I could be wrong and have been before.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I suppose the Fw187 may have made a difference in the BoB IF they had followed a more productive system and planning.
Otherwise, if you pluck one fighter type out of the historical timeline and replaced it with another (say, remove the Fw190 and replace it with the Fw187), they would have still ended up failing to reach their goals as actually happened.
So sure, the Fw187 may have gone on to kick ass on the RAF, but to what end? The Luftwaffe still dropped the ball on the bombing strategy, they still dropped the ball on following an effective escort/interceptor strategy and all this adds up to the Fw187 not making any difference in the final outcome of that fight.
Otherwise, if you pluck one fighter type out of the historical timeline and replaced it with another (say, remove the Fw190 and replace it with the Fw187), they would have still ended up failing to reach their goals as actually happened.
So sure, the Fw187 may have gone on to kick ass on the RAF, but to what end? The Luftwaffe still dropped the ball on the bombing strategy, they still dropped the ball on following an effective escort/interceptor strategy and all this adds up to the Fw187 not making any difference in the final outcome of that fight.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
I haven't seen any reasonable claims that the RLM avoided the Fw 187 for legitimate technical reasons. It didn't fit their standard doctrine as the Bf 110 did, so on that technicality (and inflexibility/shortsightedness) it was held back. But beyond that, the prevailing argument seems to be sheer bias towards everything Messerschmitt. This seems to apply to the Me 210 and 410 as well, while the Ar 240 was given less attention, and when the RLM did finally request a fast twin-engine heavy fighter from Focke Wulf, they insisted it be made of wood. (rather ironic given Heinkel would have been the better firm to pursue there as far as experience in wooden construction AND fighter aircraft design -Gotha had more extensive use in service, but not so much in the fighter or high speed types; even then, wood was a poor option late-war due to restricted resources -the Mosquito likewise would have been impossible to build in the UK with similar resource shortages, or even lesser shortages given how specialized De Havilland construction was)
A direct derivative of the Fw 187 would undoubtedly have been more practical in the Ta 154's role and much faster to develop. (adopting Jumo 211F or J engines probably would have been a safer bet too given the 211N's initial reliability problems)
I say it would be a bit different than all of those, lighter than the P-38, likely able to reach service early, useful in 2-seat configuration from the start (with potential for further development in 2 or 1 seat configurations). The limited reports seem to at least imply it had good overall control and roll rate (in common with the Whirlwind though with much lower wing loading).
It wasn't tested heavily enough to be proven, but compared to the XP-38 and YP 38 as well as Whirlwind prorotypes, the Fw 187 seemed to be much more trouble free and more readily adaptable to combat. (Gloster's Twin possibly had similar qualities, but it had even less testing and fewer prototypes and modifications made along with significantly more limited internal fuel capacity -it SEEMS like it had more potential for modification in line with the Fw 187 compared to the rather tightly designed Whirlwind, but the lack of real world testing leaves much more up to speculation than even the Fw 187)
It by no means would have been a good mosquito. The Ar 240 would be the closest counterpart there, but the Fw 187 might have made a good daylight Mosquito killer and significantly faster than the Bf 109 or Fw 190 at least during the early war period. (it should have continued to scale up in speed, but it might have hit some unusual high speed/transonic problems that didn't show up in the early testing) It wouldn't have been a useful nightfighter until the compact late-war models became available. (the Ar 240 should have been better there)
The Ta 154 was by no means a direct competitor to the Mosquito either, though it was intended as a Mosquito killer.
Unless true critical (insurmountable) flaws were present in the Fw 187 and Ar 240 beyond historical development beyond the likes already present on the Me 110 and 210 (and even the 410's limitations). I don't see a good reason why Messerschmitt shouldn't have cut back on their heavy fighter development in favor of modifying the Bf 109 to correct its deficiencies (something the RLM also compromised by being unwilling to delay production at all, even if it meant retaining features that substantially increased attrition and decreased servicability -lack of drop tanks or increased internal fuel capacity cost a lot of aircraft in ditching and forced landings and lack of correcting landing gear issues cost a lot of aircraft due to ground handling mishaps, then there's cockpit visibility issues that took far too long to be addressed and even then weren't as improved as they could have been)
Lots of potential 109 modifications that should have made it more competitive with the Fw 190 or potentially better all around as far as being easier to fly and significantly cheaper and faster to manufacture.
It wouldn't have been a good replacement for the 109 due to cost (even the 190 had disadvantages there that makes more heavily modified Bf 109s seem more attractive -in sheer cost and serviceability, but not necessarily raw performance).
Radio wise, I don't think communication with the bombers was the biggest concern, but rather sheer reliability problems with fighter type radios in the 1939/1940 period. I believe this situation improved during 1941, but up to that point, a dedicated radio operator with a multi-channel tunable radio in the first couple years of the war would have been significant especially on long range aircraft.
Again, the Fw 187 would have been a better replacement for the Bf 110 than the Bf 109, the Bf 110 may have been better suited to some specialized roles, but between the Ju 88 and Fw 187 (and later possibly Ar 240) I'm not sure it had any consistent advantage over possibly alternatives. Dropping the defensive armament requirement and Messerschmitt bias were the biggest hurdles Focke-Wulf needed to overcome pre-war to actually have preference for mass production. (this would include priority over Jumo powered Bf 110Bs as well) Criticism over offensive armament would have been more legitimate but also should have been practical to expand upon. (addition bomb racks and heavier gun armaments both)
Investing in 'long range' Bf 109 derivatives with expanded fuel capacity (internal or drop tanks) would have been more worthwhile than investing in Fw 187s for that express purpose. A redesigned wing with expanded fuel capacity probably would have been more useful than drop tank plumbing (better for drag and better for fighter-bombers) a small rear tank used mostly for warm-up and take off (to avoid CoG issues) would have been useful too and probably simpler to add than wing tanks. (delaying wing redesign until the 109F might be more practical, but rather than the existing 109F wing, a heavier redesign with wide track, inward retracting gear and added fuel capacity would have been better)
- Thread starter
- #93
GregP
Major
I already said the decision might be political or otherwise. What are you trying to tell me? The fact remains the people in power at the time in the Third Reich rejected the Fw 187.
It was a great loser, to be sure and had potential I admit, and the decision can be questioned, but there was no way it was going to be otherwise unless the people in power at the time changed ... and they didn't. They were who they were absent assination and replacement.
The planes they flew are the planes they flew ... nothing else is real ... it's smoke and mirrors nd misdirection like a Las Vegas magic act.
I absolutely fully accept it might have been a good service aircraft buy they never made one that fought anything.
The existing planes did what they did. Hang your hat on that and only that. They never got developed beyond what happened. Alternative events are fun, but fantasy. Maybe we will find one in some German's garage or barn and restore it. That would be fun at least.
It was a great loser, to be sure and had potential I admit, and the decision can be questioned, but there was no way it was going to be otherwise unless the people in power at the time changed ... and they didn't. They were who they were absent assination and replacement.
The planes they flew are the planes they flew ... nothing else is real ... it's smoke and mirrors nd misdirection like a Las Vegas magic act.
I absolutely fully accept it might have been a good service aircraft buy they never made one that fought anything.
The existing planes did what they did. Hang your hat on that and only that. They never got developed beyond what happened. Alternative events are fun, but fantasy. Maybe we will find one in some German's garage or barn and restore it. That would be fun at least.
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I wasnt thinking about a turret more like the arrangement for the B 17 rear gunner but controlled by the co pilot. This may allow a shot on an AC without having to turn inside to get a lead or "follow" a rolling/diving aircraft, the pilot of a mosquito already has a lot of front firing firepower with the 4 cannon. It was just an idea.
Shortround6
Major General
You are back to the major stumbling block of the 'turret" fighter. Trying to co-ordinate the thoughts/movements of two men. In your turn scenario any misjudgment of the turn ( or shakiness on the stick) while throw the "gunner" off. And at 250-300mph in the turn comments/instructions on course correction (and the turn is not likely to be flat but either climbing or diving to some extent) from the "gunner" is likely to get results too late to be much good.
it may enable shots to made on occasion but are the occasions often enough or successful enough to warrant the increase in weight and/or drag and the resulting loss of performance?
it may enable shots to made on occasion but are the occasions often enough or successful enough to warrant the increase in weight and/or drag and the resulting loss of performance?
Kryten
Senior Airman
Drift compatibility is the answer!
Shortround6
Major General
When comparing these twins it is good to remember that they went from just over 10,000lbs for a Whirlwind to around 30,000lbs for a clean P-61, He 219, Ju-88 so obviously there are some differences in capability. Some Prototype twins went even more.
The early twins often failed or weren't quite up to the role/s originally intended for them but such was the progress of warfare in WW II that new roles came up that weren't thought of or seriously considered only a few years earlier. Many aircraft succeeded in roles they never originally designed for. The Bigger planes traded performance for flexibility or adaptability. Power also more than doubled from the early twins to the late twins.
The early twins often failed or weren't quite up to the role/s originally intended for them but such was the progress of warfare in WW II that new roles came up that weren't thought of or seriously considered only a few years earlier. Many aircraft succeeded in roles they never originally designed for. The Bigger planes traded performance for flexibility or adaptability. Power also more than doubled from the early twins to the late twins.
As I said it was just an idea, I dont know if there would be a substantial increase in weight replacing 4 .303 MGs with 2 x 0.5 mounted on an arrangement like the B17 and it doesnt seem more bulky. I was viewing it from this point of view. 4 cannon was the only armament on the Typhoon Tempest and Sea Fury and considered to be enough. Any advantage gained is a plus considering you have a two man crew it depends how much the set up of the guns weighs compared to the standard 4 mgs.
Shortround6
Major General
Roughly a US .50 cal Browning gun weighs about 3 times what a .30 cal or .303 Browning does. Ammo weighs about 4-5 times as much. 2000 rounds of .303 (500rpg) weighs as much as 400 rounds of .50 cal (200rpg). Then whatever the power mounting weighs. Restricting traverse and elevation will help restrict bulk but may not do much for weight. You still need pretty much the same motors or hydraulic system if you are traversing 45 degrees or 180 degrees. You need rate of traverse and acceleration to stay on target.
Thanks for the info SR........I will perfect my design and move on to world domination.
