Twinned Bf 109 instead of Bf 110?

Let's say that Willy has a lightbulb moment before 1935, comes out with a 2-seat aircraft consisted mainly of parts of early Bf 109, with ~900 L of fuel, and wins the RLM contract that Bf 110 historically won. Basically, a 'pre-Bf-109Z'. Aircraft is size of Whirlwind. Development goes on in subsequent years, there is no Me 210 as we know and don't like.
What kind of performance we can expect, both as-is and with DB engines installed, armament set-up, numbers produced vs. Bf 110 and Me 210, possible impact on air war and development in other countries?

tomo pauk said:

Let's say that Willy has a lightbulb moment before 1935, comes out with a 2-seat aircraft consisted mainly of parts of early Bf 109, with ~900 L of fuel, and wins the RLM contract that Bf 110 historically won. Basically, a 'pre-Bf-109Z'. Aircraft is size of Whirlwind. Development goes on in subsequent years, there is no Me 210 as we know and don't like.
What kind of performance we can expect, both as-is and with DB engines installed, armament set-up, numbers produced vs. Bf 110 and Me 210, possible impact on air war and development in other countries?

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It was Kurt Tank that had the light bulb moment and it was called the Fw 187.

Not all two seat aircraft are created equal.
Unfortunately a twin 109 does not resolve some of the needs that some two/three seaters were built to fill.
Will you be able to fit 1936-41 radios into the 109 cockpit? Having the 2md crewman in a separate fuselage (and a small one) means that he can no longer act as a reloader for the guns/cannon because they are out in the wings (or possibly right behind the engines.) can you fit that large camera in twin 109 and does that camera need a crewman to change film magazines or otherwise tend to the camera in flight.

Using the US F-82 as an example doesn't really work. The F-82 was actually a very large airplane (408 sq ft of wing) that weighed several thousand pounds more than a Bf 110, it's electronics were also several generations later than the early 110's.

If you cut the Bf 110 but need more Do 215s or Ju 88s to fill the non air to air roles the 110 was used for do really gain a whole lot (yes you will gain some) but the 109 zwilling doesn't gain that much (and has a worse view for landing)

Shortround6 said:

Not all two seat aircraft are created equal.
Unfortunately a twin 109 does not resolve some of the needs that some two/three seaters were built to fill.
Will you be able to fit 1936-41 radios into the 109 cockpit? Having the 2md crewman in a separate fuselage (and a small one) means that he can no longer act as a reloader for the guns/cannon because they are out in the wings (or possibly right behind the engines.) can you fit that large camera in twin 109 and does that camera need a crewman to change film magazines or otherwise tend to the camera in flight.

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Attached is a drawing of the Bf 109G; little has changed in dimensions of rear fuselage between the early and late 109s. Item #13 is radio, brown-ish item behind and under the pilot is obviously the 400L fuel tank. Please note the volume between fuel tank and radio, there will be even more place left once the 'fighter's' radio is not present.
Similar is for the camera - a lot of place in a second fuselage.
Of course, for both CoG and volume reasons the big radio and/or camera will be located closer the CoG.
Guns can be 2x2 cowl MGs, 2x1 prop MG, plus 4 MGs in wing center section, for 10 LMG total for the starters. Granted, Germany needs to step up either HMG program or belt-fed cannon program(s), or both.

Using the US F-82 as an example doesn't really work. The F-82 was actually a very large airplane (408 sq ft of wing) that weighed several thousand pounds more than a Bf 110, it's electronics were also several generations later than the early 110's.
If you cut the Bf 110 but need more Do 215s or Ju 88s to fill the non air to air roles the 110 was used for do really gain a whole lot (yes you will gain some) but the 109 zwilling doesn't gain that much (and has a worse view for landing)

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Yes, for extra long range the Do 215 and/or Ju 88 will be needed.
The small size of Bf 109Z should be mostly beneficial for performance.

From pilot's descriptions regarding the F-82 I'm not sure a twinned fuselage body is all that great. Lost of challenges with the pilots sitting that far from the CG during combat maneuvering. OTOH, what if the light bulb went on and it resulted in the ME110 being an inline twin similar to the Do335?

tomo pauk said:

Let's say that Willy has a lightbulb moment before 1935, comes out with a 2-seat aircraft consisted mainly of parts of early Bf 109, with ~900 L of fuel, and wins the RLM contract that Bf 110 historically won. Basically, a 'pre-Bf-109Z'. Aircraft is size of Whirlwind. Development goes on in subsequent years, there is no Me 210 as we know and don't like.
What kind of performance we can expect, both as-is and with DB engines installed, armament set-up, numbers produced vs. Bf 110 and Me 210, possible impact on air war and development in other countries?

Click to expand...

It was late 1941 that testing of the He 111Z proved it was a good concept and provided good handling with the He 111Z entering service around the same time as the Me 109G1 in early 1942.

At that time a Me 109Z could have been ready for production by the following year based on the Me 109G4 G5 or G6.

Since the aircraft would not need two long range radio aerials, two pitot tubes it would have a significant noticeable saving in drag. The constant chord, constant thickness taper free centre wing would probably have room for fuel and also would be efficient because there would be no wing tip vortices. It could operate without "Gondola Weapons" since 2 x 20mm and 4 x machine guns, of whatever calibre, is sufficient.

The rolls it could perform would be
1 Bad weather fighter. IE night flying with a second pilot acting as navigator taking position readings while the pilot coventrates on flying and combat.
2 Radar equipped night fighter. Me 109 were equipped with Neptune radars that proved capable of intercepting a bomber but with the pilot staring at an oscliscope he lost his precious night vision. The second crew member would take care of this role. It would be a threat to the mosquito due to speed and radar.
3 Long range reconnaissance. I imagine with the second cockpit filled with more fuel, say 300L and maybe 100L in the wing were looking at 37.5% to 50% more fuel and more range. The aircraft could probably carry 2,4 or 5 300L drop tanks and possibly the centre section unit could be 600L or 1200L. Since the aircraft could be quite fast it should avoid interception.
4 Long range fighter. With 50% more fuel range becomes about 600 miles. With external fuel and operation radios of over 400 miles with substantial hours long loiter to protect u-boats becomes possible.
5 Long range strike bomber. A single 250 or 500kg bomb in the centreline position possible would slow the aircraft very little allowing deep strikes. The Me 109 was a good maritime strike aircraft but just too short ranged.

The trouble is that in 1942 Messerschmitt is in the pits of the Me 210 problems so Messerschmitt lacks resources unless the Me 210 is cancelled outright.

Koopernic said:

At that time a Me 109Z could have been ready for production by the following year

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A Bf 109Z was in fact considered and based on the Gustav. It was to be built in two versions as a Destroyer or bomber, with armament for the former being 5 MK 108s and one MK 103, the bomber fitted with two MK 108s and a bomb load of 2 x 1,000 kg bombs. The other Zwilling plan Messerschmitt proposed was the Me 609, two Me 309 fuselages. One source I have states that the Bf 109Z was actually constructed, out of Bf 109F fuselages but never finished as it was destroyed in an air raid, and another states that neither the Bf 109Z or Me 609 projects were begun.