UK military deaths in Afganistan hit 100

trackend said:

Royal Anglian Regiment

I have mentioned my past before but that was well before your time on here and as then I choose what I write and reveal

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Anyways, back to the Afganistan discussion....


Trackend what is the UK opinion of this mission? Is there support for it?


It looks like it will become an issue in our next election too, the left wants to have only a "non-combat" role for our troops.

{handing out flowers to the Taliban?}

Thanks Freebird, you're not in the diplomatic corp are you?

Most people that I speak to over here feel the war / hostilities cant be won, Probably as the history of the Khyber Pass ect was a thorn in the British side that was never drawn despite using the latest equipment and having a relitively large force against a few tribesmen it remained so for years.
If a by constantly keeping the Taliban under pressure it bings them to a negociated settlement and more importantly prevents the area being an easy location for terrorist units, the British public IMO will just about go with the flow. But a drawn out campaign that yeilds little movement on the diplomatic or campaign front will wear thin very quickly with the public especialy if the body count gets too high too quickly. A few guys here and a few guys there never really hits the headlines so it is only the comrades families that feel the hurt.

trackend said:

Thanks Freebird, you're not in the diplomatic corp are you?

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Perhaps...

I try to steer the conversation in a positive direction if it gets testy...

trackend said:

Most people that I speak to over here feel the war / hostilities cant be won. But a drawn out campaign that yeilds little movement on the diplomatic or campaign front will wear thin very quickly with the public especialy if the body count gets too high too quickly. A few guys here and a few guys there never really hits the headlines so it is only the comrades families that feel the hurt.

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Similar to the public opinion over here I would think.

I would chime in on this, but Kruska has pretty much covered it.

Lets hope this can stay civil, especially because of what this thread is about.

UK military deaths.

I would like to say however:

To all the men and women who have given their lives in support of the War on Terror!

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I would chime in on this, but Kruska has pretty much covered it.

Lets hope this can stay civil, especially because of what this thread is about.

UK military deaths.

I would like to say however:

To all the men and women who have given their lives in support of the War on Terror!

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To all the men and women who have given their lives in support of the War on Terror!

I apologize from diverting on this thread especially since this has been discussed on other threads,
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/politics/dutch-soldiers-will-stay-uruzgan-10899.html

Well, I might as well get my head shot off. i am against the war, in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Why, because I dont think it is a "war on terror" at all. i think it is a "war to create terror" actually. I dont think the action is going to deter a single terrorist, far from it, I think it is giving the Jihadists reason to hate us. if we had just given them the 700 umper gazillion dollars that it has cost so far, we probable would have been able to buy a small country for the palestinians to live in, and would be better off by now

Before you lot kill me, I take nothing away from the servicemen over there. They have a B*gger of a job. But for Afghanistan i think we are mostly over there to guard a pipeline.

I dont know what Iraq was for.. I know this. NONE of the reasons given are the reasons we are over there.

Oh boy I think you are dead meat but the Australian flag might save you.

I do certainly share your view on Iraq, but on Afghanistan I see it differently.
It is a fact that this place became a homestate for islamic nuts and terrorists after it was abondened by the West - having done their job against the Russians.

If 9/11 or not, sooner or later the West would have needed to do something about this country such as Sudan which is still largly ignored.

IMO the approach and action done after the US counter-attack on Afghanistan is the questionable one, since I do agree that a country such as Afghanistan will never remain peacefull or westernminded as soon as ISAF retreats. Presently IMO it is just a mirror of Vietnam. As cruel or disrespectfull it might sound but I think the West should just keep supplying weapons (make some money out of this) to the 2-3 big parties and make sure none of them gets a majority.

As long as they can cut each others throats they will feel happy following their present tribal heritage and could pose no threat to anyone outside their country.

Presently we are just feeding a single power group that is corrupt and unstable, disliked and not respected as an authority (without ISAFbehind them). If the factor Pakistan turns against the West - which is possible at any time, it will be Pakistan and Iran that decides the powergame in Afghanistan and ISAF will be helpless, Europe and the US will be just scratching their heads and abandon this place once more.

Since the West is rather willing to pay a billion and sacrifice soldiers for nothing, the chance to pay 2 billion (or whatever) to really change this country is neglegted.

Regards
Kruska

parsifal said:

But for Afghanistan i think we are mostly over there to guard a pipeline.

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So with Afghanistan in regards to 9-11, were we supposed to just sit there and go

"Oh well, they killed 3000+ people and attacked us on our soil, who cares..."

Did you really expect us, to not do anything.

I personally agree with both conflicts. I can however understand why you do not agree with Iraq. Afghanistan though? I really do not understand that.

As for the pipeline reference. When we attacked Afghanistan, there was no pipeline. The agreement to build the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline was not sind till about 1 year later.

I am sorry I just do not understand your view on Afghanistan...

And there is STILL no pipeline....

If you think that at some point we would not have to fight these mad basters in the sand of the Mid East ...............OR A FOOL...

Do some of you real think you can reason with these people....???..

The West put them on the map and found and set up there oil world..And they hate us...

We do it now or are kids and grand kids will have to... The longer we wate the stronger the groups get...

Osama Bin Laden is a business man...He had a job and a team of workers that there job was to fight the USSR...And when the USSR were gone from Afghanistan he and his employees had no work..No money no food..So he finds a new line of work for him and his "Company".. Attack the US...9-11 was a business move ...

I'm a Fabrication shop owner..Lots of trick cars and bikes ..Do a lot of rally car work ..If the cars and bikes dry up ... I'll do aircraft fab or metal fab for pots and pans or....What ever needs to be welded.. Do to I still have to eat and pay the bills...

The same with Osama Bin Laden Inc.....

How does going into Afghanistan, and killing a whole s*itload of people bring back the 3000 people who died in 9-11. How does causing grief to 50000 families in the middle east make us more secure. Do you think these people can be browbeaten, do think these people can be made to fear us. All we are doing is make them hate us.

I do care what happens to my kids and my grandkids. thats why i am opposed to the war. I want them to live in a safer world, not one where every time they see a guy with a rag on his head, they start to worry.

Unless we are going to kill every person of middle eastern persuasion, this is not a war we are going to win.

And one final thing...how many insurgnecies have the americans actually won. i cant think of any. How many has Australia "won". None as well, but unlike the Americans, our involvement in Malaya, Borneo, Timor, the Solomons, and New Guinea, have all ended with our nationals being able to return to those countries without living in fear of their lives. The trick, if you want to call it that, is respect.

parsifal said:

How does going into Afghanistan, and killing a whole s*itload of people bring back the 3000 people who died in 9-11.

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It stopped those who did 9-11 from doing it again - simple....

It stopped those who did 9-11 from doing it again - simple


Oh come on, you cant be serious. There are 88 dead Australians, dead Englishmen in the subway, and dead spaniards on their public transport system that say you are wrong.

I am not some card carrying liberal. if I saw a clear strategy with defined goals, and a finite program I would say, lets go kick some islamic arse. But ther is no plan, no program, no goal. All we are doing is sweeping SS style through the streets and valleys of these countries making enormous and long term enemies of every one of them, we do this because the footprint we are leaving is too heavy no matter how light we tread.

To win this war, I believe we have to separate the extremists from the main stream. Given that the majority of the extremists come from one of the most repressive regimes the world has ever seen, Saudi Arabia, the key starting point is to do something in that country. But the US is never going to do that, and the reasons are obvious. Because we wont do what should and has to be done, we should not be there at all. All we are doing is getting a lot of people killed, and making a lot of enemies that will last for centuries along the way

As far as Afghanistan is concerned, we went ther because we were after Bin Laden, but we managed to f*ck that up good and proper. Instead of throwing him in gaol, he got away, made us look like fools, and is now a martyr for his cause. in 100 years the Islamics will look back on Bin Laden as a hero...in two years they will not even remember the names of the Allied commanders

Face it, the whole "war on terror" has been one gigantic stuff up one after the other, what we need is a Bismarck to get our heads out of our collective arses,, and indulge in a dose of realpolitik for a while

parsifal said:

How does going into Afghanistan, and killing a whole s*itload of people bring back the 3000 people who died in 9-11. How does causing grief to 50000 families in the middle east make us more secure. Do you think these people can be browbeaten, do think these people can be made to fear us. All we are doing is make them hate us.

.

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Using your logic we should nto have gone to war with Germany in WW2. How did it bring back 6,000,000 Jews, and 70,000,000 other people?

Come one now...

No Adler, if you used my logic you would see the difference. With Germany, the plan, the solution was to defeat Germany, in the field of battle. that way all the bad things that you mention went away.

In this situation, there is no country, no field of battle, nothing to defeat. How do you fight an enemy that blends in so well with the innocent population that surrounds it. You certainly dont start attacking that surrounding society, unless you intend to massacre that entire society. The answer lies in stripping away that society from supporting the evil core that lives amongst it. Exactly how that is to be achieved, Im not sure, but it sure aint by the way we are doing things right now

parsifal said:

It stopped those who did 9-11 from doing it again - simple


Oh come on, you cant be serious. There are 88 dead Australians, dead Englishmen in the subway, and dead spaniards on their public transport system that say you are wrong.

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Were there any Afghanistan based Al Qaeda attacks against the US since 9-11?????? - NO.

I rest my case.....

Hello FLYBOY,

I am sure it was not your intension to forward that the US is keeping away the war from its own country but rather to project it to somewhere else. And unfortunately this is actually happening. Since 9/11 about 1200 ISAF and Pakistani soldiers got killed – not to mention the thousands of Afghan and Pakistan civilians. And as you know this statistic doesn't include more than 150,000 soldiers and civilians who have been killed in Iraq so far.

This is indeed a heavy price for 3000+ killed in 9/11, (one could also term it as "grossly disproportionate") and it also shows that it does not solve the situation but is actually worsening it. As I forwarded in an earlier post, I disagree with Iraq and I support the initial counterattack on Afghanistan, but indeed it did not help to solve or to safeguard the non Muslim population or the Westerners on this planet.

Regards
Kruska

Kruska said:

Hello FLYBOY,

I am sure it was not your intension to forward that the US is keeping away the war from its own country but rather to project it to somewhere else. And unfortunately this is actually happening.

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Actually I am to a point - personally my concern is with 1. the USA, 2. our allies, 3. the "Western World."

Kruska said:

Since 9/11 about 1200 ISAF and Pakistani soldiers got killed – not to mention the thousands of Afghan and Pakistan civilians. And as you know this statistic doesn't include more than 150,000 soldiers and civilians who have been killed in Iraq so far.

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Unfortunately that's the price being paid for the division in the muslim world or a piece of it, that being Iraq. When Saddam Hussein was taken down there was a great opportunity for the Iraqi people to take control of their destiny. Instead the country fractured into conflicting divisions because of a lack of right type of leadership to keep a country like Iraq in check - and I hate to say it, it seems the answer to this is a brutal dictator. It's pretty sad when the only way to control a region of people is through a brutal dictator........

Kruska said:

This is indeed a heavy price for 3000+ killed in 9/11, (one could also term it as "grossly disproportionate") and it also shows that it does not solve the situation but is actually worsening it. As I forwarded in an earlier post, I disagree with Iraq and I support the initial counterattack on Afghanistan, but indeed it did not help to solve or to safeguard the non Muslim population or the Westerners on this planet.

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It is a heavy price but look at the people you're dealing with. We could leave the region right now and they'll fight among themselves and they'll be another 100,000 soldiers and civilians killed. The Clerics that are in the region survive on hatred and war. Personally I don't care. I don't care if they hate the US, the rest of the western world or you and I. When they project that hatred beyond their borders, well then I have a problem.

This discussion needs to be separated into the two conflicts. Right now Afghanistan is at a turning point and if the pressure is not effectively kept up against those in that region that wants to project their hatred towards the west and use that country as a staging point you will be seeing more attacks aganist targets in the west. Iraq in my view a different situation. My feeling is Saddam Hussein needed to go - but once he was gone so should of the US forces that were there and the emphasis placed in Afghanistan. By placing our forces into a "police action" it created the very thing that Bush and his buddies wanted to prevent.

FB

On the basis of your last postback to me, the rest of us should get the hell out of dodge, and let the US achieve its security its own way, and we should secure ours our way. I find your complete lack of concern for the security of your allies disturbing. Australia has backed the US 100% in this war, and virtually every other war since WWII. Is this how your countrymen intend to treat your allies in the future..."so long as the good ol USA is safe, we dont give a S*it!!!". Is that how it is from now on. I know that it isnt, but the attitudes expressed in your post, if adopted as US policy would lead to that. What is disturbing , and normal, is the failure of the US to even listen to any advice or concerns from even its true allies. They just charge at the issue blindly and unthinking, and then expect the rest of the world to follow. And i doubt that many in the US realize (or care) the serious and deep damage this approach is causing in its partners. Australia has recently completed its final pullout from Iraq. Nothing gets said, but I can assure you that Australians are bitterly dissappointed in the leadership shown by the US over this issue. And your allies dont get much closer than Australia. Your country's failure to listen is costing you all of your overseas alliances. Can the US achieve its security alone???

And this approach fails to look at the issue objectively. I dont think US security is being enhanced in any meaningful way at all. It is a false sense of security. Far from it. I think the world is filling with despisement of the US and its alliance every day that this is happening, and after we leave, as eventually we must, the terror to our own shores will return tenfold worse than it ever was.

Successful counterinsurgency, IMO does not succeed by increasing the body count. Thats just a byproduct, and one that should be avoided if possible (because it inevitably generates further resentament and conflict if the casualties are innocent). The US is finally starting to get that, but i think it is far too late now.

This war is not quite a classic counterinsurgency, which leads me to admit that I dont quite know exactly how to deal with it. At its heart is pure evil, IMO. It cannot be reasoned with, and has as its agenda, a desire to kill anything that opposes its warped values. Fear, does not appear to influence it. People that believe in it are religiously driven. The recruitment grounds for its personnel seem to be rooted in the economic and social sense of hopelessness that exist for many Muslims in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Having admitted that, the best overall strategy against a creed of that nature is to starve it of its human resources, in other words to make it a better option for the people in its recruitment areas to do other things (like make money) rather than martyr oneself for Allah.