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Ah, guys, Packard delivered about 45 Merlins in ALL of 1941. While there may have been a few available for flight testing in a few air frames with 2/3 of production going to the British there would have been darn few American P-51s with Merlins before 1942. There were also only 138 P-51s accepted in 1941 compared to 2,246 P-40s and in 1942 the numbers went 634 P-51s to 3,854 P-40s. A big jumps in Mustang production came with the opening of the Dallas Factory and moving a lot of B-25 production to Kansas City.
A Merlin V-1650-1 wold have been better than an Allison powered one overall ( but not by much at certain altitudes depending which Allison) but it would not have been available in any numbers in 1942 or early 1943 and would only have been available at the cost of the P-40F which at the time was the second best Army altitude fighter available in any quantity next to the P-38. In 1942 early 1943 there were nowhere near enough P-38s to go around. Over 3600 P-40F-s were built along with 700 'L's. Granted near the end the V-1650-1 was competing for production with the V-1650-3 but allocation for raw materials and finished sub-contractor parts have to be months and months before a US plane ever saw combat.
Ah, guys, Packard delivered about 45 Merlins in ALL of 1941. While there may have been a few available for flight testing in a few air frames with 2/3 of production going to the British there would have been darn few American P-51s with Merlins before 1942. There were also only 138 P-51s accepted in 1941 compared to 2,246 P-40s and in 1942 the numbers went 634 P-51s to 3,854 P-40s. A big jumps in Mustang production came with the opening of the Dallas Factory and moving a lot of B-25 production to Kansas City.
Which brings up another issue...
Should Curtiss have begun transitioning to manufacturing P-51's?
By the time Packard was building enough V-1650-1s to consider putting them in P-51s wasn't the Merlin 60 being tested/put into production?
Was it better to wait for an even better engine than put in an interim engine?
...
The P-40K used the an engine rated at 1325hp for take-off even if it was not quite the same as the one in the A-36 . October 28, 1941 is when the first order for 600 is placed but the first one doesn't fly until August of 1942 by which time a total of 1300 are on order. Many are lend leased to China and while some go to England the majority of the USAAF ones go to the South Pacific and Asia. I hope you see what I mean about allocations. Ordered in October 1941, first production in August and a Plane in Buffalo New York is a long, long way from combat in Asia. Even with 1325hp for take-off and a WER rating of 1580hp at 2500ft the official bomb load of the P-40 K is the same as the P-40E.
Once again I will call to attention the fact that an Allison powered P-51 could hold it's own against either Bf 109s or or FW 190s better than a Merlin powered P-40 could and much better than a an Allison powered P-40 could. While the V-160-1 powered P-51 would be even better it reduces the TOTAL number of fighters judged capable of fighting German aircraft in the planners minds of the time. The P-40E being judged NOT capable of performing the air to air duty. I know that they did score many successes but it is also true that in many operations they were given "top" cover by other fighter types. I believe it was thought that the P-40F wouldn't need other fighters to give it top cover. This "plan" may have been thrown a curve with better German aircraft becoming available.
In this case of 'early Merlinized P-51' scenario, P-40F still gets built, though in less examples; the balance receives V-1710s.
As for the 'planers' really believing that a 370-mph plane is a viable option to fight 400-mph planes (while a 360 mph plane is not), that statement would require some good data confirming such a believe. RAF was not very convinced in that anyway, so they went for a 400 mph plane of their own, in service in the very 1942.
If you are a time traveler and know exactly when not only your own planes and engines will be be made and upgraded (WER settings) but ALSO know when the enemy's planes and engines will be be made and upgraded then it is quite possible to juggle things around. Without that type of knowledge trying to predict exactly what type of aircraft would be needed 9-15months in future and in what numbers gets much more difficult.
There is no need for a time traveler here.
In early 1941 people that mattered in the USA knew for a fact:
-P-51 is faster than P-40, on same engine similar armament; it also has 20% more fuel internally = better combat ferry range
-a Merlin XX that is going to be produced by Packard develops same HP at 6-7000 ft higher altitude, when compared with V-1710 to be produced in 1941-42 (F series)
Those two (airframe and engine) put together seem like a winner to me. Even without gambling on where or if the WER is to be allowed for.
As for the 370mph vs 360mph P-40s that isn't quite the comparison they were thinking about. at 20,000ft the Merlin powered P-40 was over 30mph faster than the Allison powered "E" and at 25,000ft the difference was over 50mph. The "operational" ceiling (altitude at which climb was still 1000ft per min) was also going to favor the Merlin powered P-40 by 4-6,000ft. Now I will admit that even the P-40F was maxed out somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000ft which gives the advantage to the 109 Fs and Gs but Allison powered P-40s would have no hope against them without another type of fighter covering them. The P-40F was not their equal but at least had a chance at the 15,000-22,500 altitudes.
Allison Powered Mustangs remained useful much longer, in British service 5 squadrons were still in use on D-Day with MK Is and IAs. A squadron with MK IIs was still flying recon missions in April of 1945 in Europe.
What "mix" of Allison and Merlin powered P-40s and Mustangs gives you the Largest numbers of useful fighters in a European context in 1942-43?
We could 1st declare what range of performance (speed 1stly; neither P-40 nor P-51 were that good climbers compared with main adversaries or concurents). For Europe I reckon you mean ETO (german-occupied part of France in 1940-42 and northern from that)?
In 1942 the main adversaries were Fw-190A (A-3?) and Bf-109F-4 - both very much capable to do 400 mph @ 20K, and very good climbers. The P-40F can do circa 360 mph at same altitude (10 mph less than Spit V (w/ Merlin 45). Since Spit V was considered as outclassed vs. those adversaries at most altitudes (RAF hastily went for the 'interim' Spit IX), there is no point to consider P-40F as a viable fighter vs. German opposition. BTW, finding informations about P-40F operating from UK is pretty hard - can someone shed some light about that?
So I'd go for some 1600 pcs of P-51 with V-1650-1 (= all non-Merlin Mustang/P-51/A-36 airframes), as many of those to operate from UK as possible (rest of the engines can go for P-40).
.Most P-40Fs went to North Africa, not Northern Europe but not the Pacific either, which is were the majority of the P-40Ks (next Allison powered model after the "E")went, which indicates to me that the planners were interested in the best altitude performance they could get at the time against the Germans. The Majority of the P-38s available were also being marshaled for the North Africa Invasion. The Transfer of the P-38s delayed P-38 escort of the Eighth Air Force bombers
In summer/fall of 1941 when the production decisions were made the abilities of the 109F-4 and the 190A-3 were not as well known as later. In some factories the 190A-2 only preceded the P-40F into production by 3-4 months.
Without a major re-adjustment of the P-51 production schedule you aren't going to get the majority of your 1600 planes until late 1942 or early 1943, if then. Getting them into service would take months longer. The First 620 planes are to British contracts placed on may 29th 1940 (320 planes) and Sept 1940 (300) planes. in all of 1941 there are 128 Mustangs built and 68 of them are in December. Remember that Packard only built 45 engines in all of 1941. Packard Merlins simply are not available for the first few hundred Mustangs unless you hold the British air frames at the factory until engines become available, first 320 may have been paid for cash and carry and not lend/lease which makes the US air force getting hold of them rather difficult. First Mustang reaches England in Oct, 1941. First Operational use isn't until May 10th 1942. This is a busy time for the Mustang. In the previous month (April 1942) the contract is placed for 500 A-36 dive bombers, perhaps at this point the contract could have substituted the Merlins? On May 29th 1942 the first flight of a P-51 (Mustang IA) with 4 20mm cannon takes place. the order for 150 was placed back in July of 1941, these are definitely lend lease aircraft and 57 stay with the US Forces. In June of 1942 another order is placed for 1200 P-51A aircraft, this contract is cut back to 310 aircraft in Dec 1942 with the remainder to become part of the P-51B order. The last of the 620 plane British order rolls out the door in in July of 1942, the same month a contract is placed for the conversion of two lend lease P-51s to XP-78 standard (XP51-B) with two stage Merlins. Work is started on the P-51 order. Sept of 1942 sees the first flight of the A-36, one month after the first order for 400 P-51Bs is placed, one month before the first British conversion flies and less than 3 months before the first North American XP-51B flies.
There is actually only a small window of time when there would be enough Packard built Merlin's available to make such a project worthwhile and when such a project would delay the introduction of the P-51B. Put that together with which Allisons were available when (or promised, there were several projects in the works for high altitude engines in late 1941). I would note that the final 310 Allison powered Mustangs got improved engines that cut the difference in altitude performance between the older Allison engines and the V-1650-1 about in half.
The fact that the Mustang has less drag than a P-40 also means it can climb better at the same weight because less power is going into forward flight, leaving more power for climb.
The US Government (AAC) did not allow WER ratings until Dec of 1942. What combat units did seems to have been a different story.
.So by 'European context' you mean MTO in this case - okay, we can consider a historical situation re. P-40F as 'almost none for ETO'.
We can take another approach as to what kind of threats USAAC is to expect from LW: in 1940 (or - even in 1939) it was known for fact that LW fields the 370 mph fighter. Should the USAAC brass expect that Germans will not move forward, to introduce a plane capable to do 400 mph within 18 months ( or -10 months from BoB it was) - in time P-40 with V-1650 is in service (or - make it a full year before P-40F)?
Thanks for the insight about Mustang's historical time line.
What can (good or bad) happen for Mustang, with Brits supplying the NAA with a Merlin XX in late 1940? The engine is installed flown within 4-6 months, and brass both at RAF USAAC are satisfied, and both British contracts for Mustang are altered for V-1650 instead of V-1710. USAAC wants the plane (so both Packard NAA get higher on a priority list), but will wait that RAF gets their order 1st.
1st Mustang reaches UK in Oct 1941 (with British engine), 1st operational use in July 1942.
USAAC places an order for P-51 in Jan 1942, the plane is 1st flown in June 1942, with 1st combat use in Feb 1943.
The window of time could span to some 10-12 months for USAAC, so not really small time. The delay for historical P-51B was due for numerous things - low availability of 1650-3 is the main thing. The success of the V-1650-1 powered Mustang would get people thinking even more: we just can't wait to fly it with two-stage inside!
How much of a "success" is the V-1650-1 powered Mustang? It still can't fly top cover for the bombers. For that you need performance at 25,000-30,000ft. the single stage Merlin won't provide that, while better than the Allison powered Mustang the V-1160-1 is about 400hp down at 23,500 compared to a V-1650-3 or later Merlin.
For escort service you need more range, the Early Merlin Mustang is good but but again with the Early engine (which is 150-200lbs lighter + prop weight) putting in a rear fuselage tank gets very iffy.
After the Dec of 1942 the V-1650-1 shows no advantage at low altitude compared to the Allison powered planes ( the change to WER) which may have been done sooner by some service squadrons.
For the low altitude attack or photo recon Missions the V-1650-1 version doesn't really have a big advantage over the Allison powered versions.
You are modifying the time line so that the Mustang prototype is given a new engine just before it flies, First flight with Allison was Oct 26th 1940. Three more flights are made in Nov but the SOLE prototype crashes on the 5th flight, it is later repaired. This delays things a bit. Modifying the contracts means the British have to supply the engines for the first few hundred aircraft.
Packard isn't ready. Packard was already high on the priority list, as an example Allison was 800th on the list and in 1941 Allison engines were being rationed to Lockheed, Bell and Curtiss because Allison couldn't build them fast enough (another reason for the P-40F) Without some real evidence there is no reason that a magic wave of the "priority" wand would have changed things much. Which British aircraft don't get their Merlins so that the Mustang project can proceed?
The P-40 was never intended to be the US premier fighter. It was ALWAYS the second best fighter BUT the low risk fighter that could be built in large numbers while the better fighters were developed and put in production. in 1942 there wee 3854 P-40s built compared to roughly 4740 P-38s, P-39s, P-47s and P-51s (of all kinds) built combined. Counting the Mustang out as a British plane (from the USAAC brass point of view) they were planning on the P-38 and P-47 to take care of the German 400mph fighters.
The P-40F served two purposes. It gave the US somewhere to stick the 1/3 of Packard production that was agreed to in the original 9000 engine contract and it offered a useful boost to P-40 performance to help "hold the line" while the P-47 and P-38 got over their initial troubles and got into full production. Please note that while the contract was placed in Sept of 1940 Packard doesn't really hit it's stride until April of 1942 when production tops 500 engines a month, later in the year they go to over 800 a month.
First "F"s went to Egypt in July of 1942, six months after production starts, they are in combat in August, 57th fighter group goes into action in Aug 1942. In the summer/fall of 1942 North Africa is where the Western Front is. The P-40s don't have the range to operate over France and Low Countries much better than the existing British aircraft and German fighter opposition is just a few Groupes. With the coming of the NA invasion on Nov 8 1942 NA really became the center of effort in the west. With some convoys sailing in the middle of October this meant that ship loadings and force allocations had been made weeks earlier.
It had to be expected that the P-40s would operate against German aircraft.
Wouldn't it be more successful than the other single-stage supercharger powered fighters? A V-1650-1 powered Mustang should out perform a V-1650-1 powered P-40, Hurricane, and offer far greater range/endurance than the Spitfire.How much of a "success" is the V-1650-1 powered Mustang?
Seems the USAAC was not very eager to accept the P-51. This has been discussed in other threads, but it seems that the P-51 could have entered service earlier had there been more US support.P-51 seems like a vastly better 'place to stick 1/3rd of Packard production' than a P-40 to me (even if that's only 15%) - as cheap as P-40, yet as capable as future P-38 -47. Win-win situation both for people that will fly it and those to pay for it? It would take 1/2 time to build one vs. P-38, 30% less than for a P-47? After all, US is going to fight almost 2 wars from Dec 1941.
Since the Fw190A was not a great altitude fighter woldn't the performance of the P-51A be sufficient to counter them in most situations?
Wouldn't it be more successful than the other single-stage supercharger powered fighters? A V-1650-1 powered Mustang should out perform a V-1650-1 powered P-40, Hurricane, and offer far greater range/endurance than the Spitfire.
I was proposing the same previously, but, ahem... was not allowed
Here is what kind of performance the Allied planes in 1943 should expect from Fw-190 (attached an excerpt from the manual that covers the A5 A6). Max speed at Notleistung (3 min) is 410 mph at 20300 ft, 'combat' ceiling 31000 ft, service ceiling 33340 ft (for P-40F 34300 ft, Hurri II 35000, P-51A 35100 ft). P-51A was allowed 15 min for MIL power (408 mph @ 17500 ft), ditto for V-1650-1 (FTH with ram effect in Hurri II was 22000 ft)?