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Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
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- Mar 18, 2022
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So which of you books supports the claim the air force saved the ground forces in Battleaxe from total annihilation?
The accuracy of dive bombing has been greatly exaggerated. Pinpoint accuracy was not possible. Here's is what the US navy said about it. Note that a 30 feet circle is a much bigger. target than a tank.Some of the Stukas reputation in France came from the already mentioned Char B1 tanks and the Char 2C
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Most of which (out of ten, how many photos?) were "knocked out" on trains (1 or more) that were stopped by Stukas.
Most of them were not destroyed by Stukas. The crews could not get them off the flat cars and most of the destroyed ones were burned, destroyed by their own crews. Not the story the Germans put out
The Char B1 had a few problems of it's own, poorly trained crews, a complicated steering system that had to used to aim the gun( 0 degrees of traverse) and more than a tendency to breakdown leading to collisions with building and trees (and photo ops). Yes it was very dangerous to German troops.
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But like many of the big German tanks at the end of the war, many broke down and were destroyed by their own crews.
Signal magazine often had a different take on things
They were not my words, it was published in a book by Christopher Shores. I'm not his editor. How about this for a maxim:
Historical Data Matters. Don't try so hard to fight it.
And (I guess you somehow missed this?) the unit history said "tail shot away". So take it up with the crew chief or the officer that wrote that. Because obviously if there was no tail at all the aircraft would have crashed.
Again, take that up with the fellow who wrote it!
Only to the painfully literal minded. That photo was just an attempt to explain what the historical record probably reflected.
Trying to explain the historical record that some of you struggle to grasp. Keep in mind, I didn't invent the phrase 'tail shot off'. Or 'tail shot away'. The photo was to help you and one other guy (that I know of) understand something which I think is obvious to most people reading the thread. It isn't defending anything I wrote, and I god damn sure as hell didn't make any mistake here. You should take your own advice.
Yes, you didn't write that description. You instead posted a photo with the tail tangibly on the airplane, with surfaces shot up, but that ignores the crux of the matter, which is that an airplane with no tail at all rarely manages a three-point landing. That's also going to the difference between "damaged" and "destroyed". If it's sitting on its tailwheel, the tail is probably still there, dig?
You posted that photo to support your interpretation, but let's be fair: it isn't evidence that your interpretation is actually correct.
... in your opinion, of course.
I'm fine admitting error, but since we're talking about subjective opinions and you haven't shown yours to be correct, I'm fine with my assessment that the picture you chose is not appropriate to depict "tail shot off". "Shot away"? Sure, I can buy that, the surfaces are shot away, but it is not "off".
Therein lies your mistake, putting that pic up as evidence of your opinion when it is of course not such. Had it been the actual airplane in question, you'd have a much stronger point. It's not my fault you mismatched written description and personally-selected picture found online; that's on you.
Dude. They don't have photos of every aircraft that flew or got damaged in WW2. I'm not going to spend hours pouring through photos to find an exact match even if there was one, which I seriously doubt there was. I didn't need to do that to begin with. It was an example to help G.S. understand what the data was reporting. Nothing more, nothing less. "Shot away" isn't actually any different than "Shot off" either.
Whenever I post a photo of something to make a point in this thread (like the upside down tanks) it seems to bother you. I think you are being very literal minded. It's an analogy, i.e. something similar to what is being discussed. Not an exact one for one depiction.
I don't mind that you don't buy the analogy, but I don't appreciate being accused of equivocation or insincerity. I'm 100% on the level here.
14 squadron used British torpedoes. Photos here. Note the length to diameter of the torpedoes. The US Mk.13 as short and fat relatively speaking. Note also the British Monoplane Air Tail at the attend of the torpedo.I just learned something interesting (to me anyway)
Apparently only one unit flying B-26s in the Med actually set up the torpedo carrying rig and used them to drop torpedoes in anti-shipping attacks.
And that was 14 Sqn RAF, starting while based in Egypt!
They started out with Vickers Wiellesleys in 1940 (which is rather amazing to me as I did not realize these were actually used in action in WW2!)
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This is one from 47 RAF over Eritrea in 1941!
14 Sqn lost a Wellesly over Eritrea on June 14, 1940, shot down by Capitano Mario Vistini in a CR.42.
Despite vulnerability to Axis fighters, these planes continued to be used in the fighting around the Horn of Africa. Apparently the last Wellesly was replaced in November 1941.
14 Sqn got Blenheim bombers in Sept 1940, fully replacing the Wellesly's by November.
They were sent to Egypt in April 1941, and took part in the fighting over Crete and during Battleaxe. They lost five Blenheims on 21 May to fighters from J.G. 27.
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In August 1942 they were pulled out of combat to retrain on Martin B-26 Marauders. They were the first RAF unit to fly them.
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Their first Marauder mission was a recon flight on 26 Oct 1942. Their missions included long range recon, anti-ship strikes, minelaying, anti-submarine missions. They later moved to Algeria, then Italy and Sardinia. 14 RAF sunk at least three Axis ships with Maruaders in early 1943 (after El Alamein). They later acted as 'spotters' for Beaufighters of 39 Squadron. They seem to have been one of the relatively few Commonwealth units that liked the Marauder, as they stayed with it until Sept 1944.
Maybe the US Marauder units in the MTO never carried torpedoes because the American torpedoes basically still didn't work in 1942. Which raises the question, was 14 Sqn using British or American torpedoes? If the latter, it seems like that might have been a useful innovation to pass on to the several USAAF B-26 units which came after Torch.
The accuracy of dive bombing has been greatly exaggerated. Pinpoint accuracy was not possible. Here's is what the US navy said about it. Note that a 30 feet circle is a much bigger. target than a tank.
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Even assuming that the Stuka was twice as accurate as the SB2C hundreds of bombs would be required to take out a gun emplacement let alone a tank.
I believe I posted this paper before but here it is again.
There is some dispute as to which -33 engines got which improvements. This is not really helped by noting that the US got -33 engines and the French, British and Chinese did not.V-1710-C (includes the -33) "These engines received heavier crankcases, a stronger crankshaft, SAE #50 propeller shaft, and Bendix pressure carburetors" I think this version still had the 'plain' crankshaft.
V-1710-F / F3R (includes the -39) "These engines had either a six or twelve weight crankshaft, revised vibration dampeners that combined to allow higher engine speeds, SAE #50 propeller shaft, and higher horsepower ratings." I think this was the 'shot peened' crank shaft
V-1710 / F4R (includes the -73) these got the Indium plated silver / lead bearings and the nitrided crank shaft.
The 12 counter weight crankshafts showed up on the F31R engines (-115) on the last batch of P-40Ns , the P-40N-40 block.My understanding is that the later V-1710s (midway through F3R production?) all got the 12 weight crank shafts as well, which worked better at higher RPM.
Not found anything in the ORBs specifically that states the aircraft were being over boosted or being set at 60 plus ", nor could I find anything in what limited engineering details I have saying engines were being set or allowed to go to 60 plus in a official capacity.
Also found some other information from Jan 42 of a Pilot max boosting an aircraft, use of 52" to disengage combat in Mar 42, grounding an entire Squadron for over boost checks in early April 1942, as well as many other occasions of over boosting (where it's stated in " (such as "I used 52" of boost to disengage" etc) or just stated as Max Boost/Over boost what ever that is. One particular entry from a diary stated the Pilot eased the Throttle to 54" (Oct 1942) - how does one ease the throttle to 54" - what was he at before???, so certainly the boosts used were well up there.
Engine failures and engine changes were really a thing in North Africa, bearing failures and rod failures being the most common, sometimes the aircraft recovered to an airfield, sometimes not and crashed..........a sample squadron shows that engine failures or engine replacements for the months of Mar/Aug amount to 21 occasions, not including the number of sorties lost for engine issues. Between the use of boost over the recommended amount, and the environmental factors, engines didn't last long, and even rebuilt ones were poor at times (badly rebuilt)
Buz
So if you have a CEP of say, 50 meters, and you drop 24 bombs, 12 of them probably hit within 50 meters. That doesn't leave much room to hide inside that circle.
Hi Buz, I just found this report that mentions overboosting. The P-40 throttle setup & boost control must have somehow allowed the specified boost limits to be exceeded.
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yes and noHi Buz, I just found this report that mentions overboosting. The P-40 throttle setup & boost control must have somehow allowed the specified boost limits to be exceeded.
I later watched the video interview and summarized the points made by the historian Mike Bechtold in post 195, including the point he made about the original air commander in the Western Desert, Raymond Collishaw, a 60 victory WW 1 ace. I didn't realize Collishaw was even Canadian until you pointed it out as a way of casting aspersions.
Shrotround6It seems like Allison was doing the refit program in 1940 and finished it in early 1941. 277 (?)engines refitted/rebuilt, it was done at the factory.
It also appears that it was done to US Army engines only and only the -33 engines. Late production -33 engines and ALL -39s had the improved parts.
However there is no mention of the British Tomahawks getting any of their engines rebuilt or any modifications to their engines.
AVG engines are in a different catagory, they were neither US engines or British engines. While it is true they were made out of "rejected" parts, in many ways they were actually hand built engines with parts brought up to specifications with inserts for threaded holes to repair thread damage or crank bearings plated and reground to bring them to tolerance.
The engines were not assembled using poorly fitted parts.
Where the AVG engines fell in the production que may affect which parts they got, but it is quite possible they got some of the old crankcases.
BUT, each engine had to be run on a test stand for the standard number of run-in hours, disassembles (at least partially) reassembled, and then packed and shipped to Curtiss or sent out as spares.
BillThere were several batches of strengthening improvements to the V-1710
V-1710-C (includes the -33) "These engines received heavier crankcases, a stronger crankshaft, SAE #50 propeller shaft, and Bendix pressure carburetors" I think this version still had the 'plain' crankshaft.
V-1710-F / F3R (includes the -39) "These engines had either a six or twelve weight crankshaft, revised vibration dampeners that combined to allow higher engine speeds, SAE #50 propeller shaft, and higher horsepower ratings." I think this was the 'shot peened' crank shaft
V-1710 / F4R (includes the -73) these got the Indium plated silver / lead bearings and the nitrided crank shaft.
My understanding is that the later V-1710s (midway through F3R production?) all got the 12 weight crank shafts as well, which worked better at higher RPM.
MikeHi Buz, I just found this report that mentions overboosting. The P-40 throttle setup & boost control must have somehow allowed the specified boost limits to be exceeded.
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I did. My ears perked up while watching that video because I recognized the name from an old book I had on Canadian WWI flying aces. His aerial tally of victories was actually 68 — for some reason the 8 balloons he shot down are often not included in his victories, even though balloons are counted in the scores of other WWI aces. That 68 total makes Collishaw the fourth-highest scoring ace of the war.
Collishaw led a life during and between the wars that would make any adventurer envious.
Mike
That was one of those extra reports I was talking about that mentioned overboosting. Others were Pilots notes, Diary entries etc.
Buz