Admiral Beez
Major
Was there really a risk of the Japanese basing forces in Madagascar?
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The Allies feared the loss of Ceylon and needed Madagascar as a base to secure the shipping routes to the Middle East.Was there really a risk of the Japanese basing forces in Madagascar?
Or send Sommerville's two fast carriers plus some cruisers and destroyers at Ceylon in mid April (when the IJN was going for Coral Sea, not Ceylon) to join Crace's Task Force 44.The Japanese already had their hands full by May of 1942. Better for the Allies to defend Africa from Ceylon , Capetown, and Aden, imo.
In 1941/42 German supply ships were able to operate in the South Atlantic and IO areas successfully, supplying the various raiders that operated there. And the tankers, after filling their tanks from Japanese refineries then successfully supplied U boats in the IO in 1943/44. See the operations of the Monsun Group.Those submarines will need torpedoes. That base is far away from all Axis nations, and ships carrying those torpedoes will have to come past Ceylon, or Gibraltar if they're German and Italian subs.
The Japanese had 4 strategies to choose from in early 1942:-Remember too that Japan is planning drives into both the South and Central Pacific, which is probably going to put cargo shipping at a premium, as well as stretch ground troops very thin.
HiOne thing being ignored here is that Japanese doctrine with submarines generally dismissed merchant warfare, preferring instead to maintain them as part of Kantai Kessen's whittling force. Putting them 8000 miles or so from where they presumed that would occur was probably not in the cards.
This is, of course, hindsight, as the Allies could not be expected to know the firm Japanee adherence to KK doctrine.
Hi
However, Japanese submarines did operate during the operation, the I-10, I-16 and I-20 arrived on 29th May. The I-10 launched its aircraft which flew over the harbour of Diego-Suarez, this aircraft was spotted by the British, HMS Ramillies actually changed its berth because of the flight. The other two submarines launched midget submarines that made an attack on the ships in harbour and , while under depth charge attack, managed to hit and damage Ramillies and sink (later refloated) the tanker British Loyalty. One midget was sunk, one of the crew's bodies washed up ashore later, the other midget M-20b was beached and the two crew got ashore. These two, Lt. Saburo Akieda and Petty Officer Masami Takemato, were later both killed in a fire fight with Royal Marines when they refused to surrender, one marine was also killed.
Mike
One thing being ignored here is that Japanese doctrine with submarines generally dismissed merchant warfare, preferring instead to maintain them as part of Kantai Kessen's whittling force. Putting them 8000 miles or so from where they presumed that would occur was probably not in the cards.
This is, of course, hindsight, as the Allies could not be expected to know the firm Japanee adherence to KK doctrine.
Attacking merchant shipping might not have been doctrine but following the operation against Diego Suarez the Japanese subs undertook a campaign, albeit a not very successful one, against Allied merchant shipping from the Mozambique Channel, up the African coast to the Gulf of Aden, across to the Bay of Bengal and down to Australian waters. They also undertook recce operations, bombardments and dropping personnel of the Indian National Army.Hi
However, Japanese submarines did operate during the operation, the I-10, I-16 and I-20 arrived on 29th May. The I-10 launched its aircraft which flew over the harbour of Diego-Suarez, this aircraft was spotted by the British, HMS Ramillies actually changed its berth because of the flight. The other two submarines launched midget submarines that made an attack on the ships in harbour and , while under depth charge attack, managed to hit and damage Ramillies and sink (later refloated) the tanker British Loyalty. One midget was sunk, one of the crew's bodies washed up ashore later, the other midget M-20b was beached and the two crew got ashore. These two, Lt. Saburo Akieda and Petty Officer Masami Takemato, were later both killed in a fire fight with Royal Marines when they refused to surrender, one marine was also killed.
Mike
With no means of resupply, wouldn't a regiment or division of Japanese troops and any aircraft be left isolated and starving on Madagascar? If the Japanese couldn't but scratch Ceylon in March 1942, what was expected against Madagascar? I'd think the IJN and IJA would first need to take Ceylon.Overall, on the risk v hazard matter the hazard was great, should the Japanese be based in Madagascar. The risk of it happening was real, if far from certain.
With no means of resupply, wouldn't a regiment or division of Japanese troops and any aircraft be left isolated and starving on Madagascar? If the Japanese couldn't but scratch Ceylon in March 1942, what was expected against Madagascar? I'd think the IJN and IJA would first need to take Ceylon.
This is, of course, hindsight, as the Allies could not be expected to know the firm Japanese adherence to KK doctrine.
Had Italy held onto its Horn colonies into 1942 I expect the Japanese might have sent something there.The IJN/IJA could have potentially won the war in alliance with the European Axis powers by concentrating their efforts in the Indian Ocean.
Probably unlikely. The linking up of the Axis in the Middle East was more of a grand German scheme than that of the Japanese.Had Italy held onto its Horn colonies into 1942 I expect the Japanese might have sent something there.
Yup. I actually did read about other theaters. Please don't let anyone know.Probably unlikely. The linking up of the Axis in the Middle East was more of a grand German scheme than that of the Japanese.
The loss of Madagascar, even for a few months would mean a near complete severing of the Allied supply lines to the Commonwealth Armies in the Middle East and to the USSR (via Iran).
That's what IRONCLAD was all about. The problem being that the RN had to try and hold Malta and the shipping routes through the Indian Ocean. Operation HARPOON was the result of 3 RN fleet carriers being tied up in the Indian Ocean, and Operation PEDESTAL, which prevented the surrender of Malta, was only possible because Indomitable could be spared from the IO.I'd change "would" to "could" in this sentence. By 1942 the UK had plenty of ASW experience, and while another front in that war would strain resources, I don't think the Brits would sacrifice the link to India easily.