Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
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One attack alone included 37 'outdated' JU-88's escorted by 21 '1930's' ME-109F's.
Before that on the same day at noon 50 Italian SM.84 and SM.79 torpedo bombers attacked with 8 CR-42 biplanes
and 38 '1940' CR.202 and RE.2001 fighters. All seen off with one merchant ship hit.
The Axis forces had at their disposal over 750 combat aircraft including 353 Stuka and JU-88 bombers - all 1930's vintage so
nothing to worry about of course. Add in 94 medium bombers of other types and 90 torpedo bombers plus 247 fighters for
escort while you are at it.
The air cover fighters for the convoy - 74 Hurricanes, Martlets, and Fulmars.
Rumour has it that Malta received over 35 more Spitfires plus supplies to keep going due to the convoy which was a strategic win
for the Allied cause. Logistic and strategic wins beat tactical wins every time - a definite fail for the axis - or so rumour has it.
ENEMY TACTICS AND EQUIPMENT
German
German air attacks against our surface forces were more effective than those of the Japanese, prior to the latter's use of suicide tactics, for the following reasons:
Early German attacks were conducted against convoys en route to Murmansk, USSR, by way of North Cape, and many merchant ships were lost from hits by bombs and torpedoes.
- German aircraft were superior.
- German pilots possessed greater skill.
- German attacks were more highly co ordinated.
- Our own air defense was weaker.
- Our surface forces were not as modern or heavily armed as those in the Pacific.
During the North African campaign dusk and night attacks were made by flare-dropping twin-engined bombers against shipping congregated in harbors.
At Sicily, Salerno, and Anzio the enemy launched heavy attacks against shipping at the beachheads. Dive- and high-level bombing and strafing tactics were employed. In the summer of 1943 the Germans began to use glider and rocket bombs. These pilotless, radio-controlled bombs were released from parent planes, and were directed chiefly against convoy escort ships.
During the invasion of Normandy the Germans changed their tactics, resorting almost exclusively to aerial mining. Many ships were sunk and damaged by mines, and the new German tactic is believed to have been their most effective use of air power against surface vessels. The invasion of Southern France was lightly opposed from the air.
During the final phase of the war the Germans employed V-l and V-2 bombs. These were directed chiefly against land targets, but ships had experience with them in the English Channel, in the Thames at London, and in the Harbor at Antwerp, Belgium.
HyperWar: Antiaircraft Action Summary--World War II
'Antiaircraft Action Summary--World War II' (Oct. 45)www.ibiblio.org
Well perhaps it would be a good idea if you yourself read up a bit on Operation Pedestal first before asking others to research the subject for you. Then you might be better informed to participate in the discussion.
Plenty has been written about it over the years.
The most recent title
Amazon product ASIN 0008364982
View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Pedestal-Times-Book-Year/dp/0008364982/ref=sr_1_1?crid=VHVQIKRO1Z9T&keywords=Operation+pedestal&qid=1676274839&s=books&sprefix=operation+pedestal%2Cstripbooks%2C138&sr=1-1
This one is good
Amazon product ASIN 1907730192
View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Pedestal-Story-Convoy-August/dp/1907730192/ref=sr_1_4?crid=VHVQIKRO1Z9T&keywords=Operation+pedestal&qid=1676274897&s=books&sprefix=operation+pedestal%2Cstripbooks%2C138&sr=1-4
Amazon product ASIN 0907579191
View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pedestal-Convoy-That-Saved-Malta/dp/0907579191/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1YSGO7GNUBHBF&keywords=Operation+pedestal+by+Peter+Smith&qid=1676275041&s=books&sprefix=operation+pedestal+by+peter+smith%2Cstripbooks%2C117&sr=1-1
Short article on it here
Even this will provide a summary of the air operations for you.
Armoured Aircraft Carriers
An account of the fight to get the 1942 Pedestal Malta Convoy through, focusing on the contribution of HMS Indomitable, Victorious and Glorious - and the Fleet Air Arm.www.armouredcarriers.com
Note particularly how many of the merchant ships were sunk after the carriers withdrew to avoid the narrow waters of the Sicilian Channel which was heavily mined.
And remember the mix of fighters at the very start of the Operation
Sea Hurricanes - 46 + 4 reserves
Fulmars - 20 (less 4 w/o in the practice Operation Beserk)
F4F - 11 (less 1 w/o in the practice Operation Beserk)
I think you have framed the discussion perfectly.I certainly don't think considering whether Pedestal was a greater axis air attack than any in the pacific in 1942 is silly, but it is hard to compare the fighting. And just considering the axis attack out of context really ignores, well, context.
I think it can become an informative argument, but rather than piling into that, I want to briefly consider the apples to oranges problem.
In pedestal the important objective was the merchant ships, the war ships were irrelevant to the strategic win. Especially at Midway, it was all about the warships.
Attackers in Pedestal were land based with advantages and disadvantages compared to planes based on moving vessels.
An offspring of this was that both sides in the pasific had to be both offensive and defensive at the same time. Sinking your opponents carriers while protecting your own. In Pedestal it was more a one side attacks, the other defends thing.
One could argue that the battles in connection with Guadalcanal was about the Island and not the fleets. However, from memory and that may mislead me, the carrier battles around Guadalcanal was largely the distant cowering forces clashing. Of course Henderson field does add an element of land based air power into the equation. As doers Midway, but somehow i don't see the comparison becoming simpler by that.
In the Pacific you could dodge around on the largest Sea on the globe making predicting the position of the enemy difficult. In the Med a convoy with an obvious target wes channelled through narrow straits.
That said, I look forward to following the discussion, and hope it will develop in a way that don't neccessitate the thread being closed prematurely.
I certainly don't think considering whether Pedestal was a greater axis air attack than any in the pacific in 1942 is silly, but it is hard to compare the fighting. And just considering the axis attack out of context really ignores, well, context.
I think it can become an informative argument, but rather than piling into that, I want to briefly consider the apples to oranges problem.
In pedestal the important objective was the merchant ships, the war ships were irrelevant to the strategic win. Especially at Midway, it was all about the warships.
Attackers in Pedestal were land based with advantages and disadvantages compared to planes based on moving vessels.
An offspring of this was that both sides in the pasific had to be both offensive and defensive at the same time. Sinking your opponents carriers while protecting your own. In Pedestal it was more a one side attacks, the other defends thing.
One could argue that the battles in connection with Guadalcanal was about the Island and not the fleets. However, from memory and that may mislead me, the carrier battles around Guadalcanal was largely the distant cowering forces clashing. Of course Henderson field does add an element of land based air power into the equation. As doers Midway, but somehow i don't see the comparison becoming simpler by that.
In the Pacific you could dodge around on the largest Sea on the globe making predicting the position of the enemy difficult. In the Med a convoy with an obvious target wes channelled through narrow straits.
That said, I look forward to following the discussion, and hope it will develop in a way that don't neccessitate the thread being closed prematurely.
Well perhaps it would be a good idea if you yourself read up a bit on Operation Pedestal first before asking others to research the subject for you. Then you might be better informed to participate in the discussion. Plenty has been written about it over the years.
The most recent title
Amazon product ASIN 0008364982
View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Pedestal-Times-Book-Year/dp/0008364982/ref=sr_1_1?crid=VHVQIKRO1Z9T&keywords=Operation+pedestal&qid=1676274839&s=books&sprefix=operation+pedestal%2Cstripbooks%2C138&sr=1-1
This one is good
Amazon product ASIN 1907730192
View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Pedestal-Story-Convoy-August/dp/1907730192/ref=sr_1_4?crid=VHVQIKRO1Z9T&keywords=Operation+pedestal&qid=1676274897&s=books&sprefix=operation+pedestal%2Cstripbooks%2C138&sr=1-4
Amazon product ASIN 0907579191
View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pedestal-Convoy-That-Saved-Malta/dp/0907579191/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1YSGO7GNUBHBF&keywords=Operation+pedestal+by+Peter+Smith&qid=1676275041&s=books&sprefix=operation+pedestal+by+peter+smith%2Cstripbooks%2C117&sr=1-1
Short article on it here
Even this will provide a summary of the air operations for you.
Armoured Aircraft Carriers
An account of the fight to get the 1942 Pedestal Malta Convoy through, focusing on the contribution of HMS Indomitable, Victorious and Glorious - and the Fleet Air Arm.www.armouredcarriers.com
Note particularly how many of the merchant ships were sunk after the carriers withdrew to avoid the narrow waters of the Sicilian Channel which was heavily mined.
And remember the mix of fighters at the very start of the Operation
Sea Hurricanes - 46 + 4 reserves
Fulmars - 20 (less 4 w/o in the practice Operation Beserk)
F4F - 11 (less 1 w/o in the practice Operation Beserk)
I stated pretty clearly that I was talking about Pedestal and it's defense by the HS1B vs the USN's carrier battles in 1942. The parts of Pedestal that don't involve FAA carrier fighters aren't relevant.I don't agree that the part of the battle after the carrier left doesn't count, because these battles (both Pedestal and the various USN battles in the Pacific in 1942) involved both land based and carrier based strike aircraft. I think it's better we initially at least lay out the actual TO&E on both sides and then we can decide what should or shouldn't be left out for whatever reasons.
Why? What does that have to do with the Sea Hurricane which was the whole basis for you starting this thread?Well they are to me. I'll clearly delineate what happened on what dates.
Your first post in this thread seems to focus on the Sea Hurricane, but it seems that you now want to cut it out of the discussion?This isn't just about the Sea Hurricane, it's about Pedestal compared to USN battles in 1942, to understand the differences in the wars in the Med and the South Pacific. And the role of the Sea Hurricane will be abundantly clear.
In fact, I believe it will be clearer when we look at the whole battle. I'm not going to slice and dice Coral Sea, Midway, or Eastern Solomons either.
As a general rule for history, I believe it is very important to include at least some context when discussing any historical event or battle. Things like weapon systems, commanders, armies, don't exist in a vacuum. They exist in their historical context. Which in this case at the very least means the whole air and sea battle during Pedestal.
Your first post in this thread seems to focus on the Sea Hurricane, but it seems that you now want to cut it out of the discussion?
Lets start by looking at the IJN aircraft and comparing them to Axis ETO aircraft at Pedestal.
IJN Val - Aichi D3A1: 550lb + 2 x 130lb bomb load, no armour, no self sealing fuel tanks, 240mph at 10K ft.
We can be a little less inclusive and not list anything that was flying.Japanese Fighters
A6M2 - (Navy) One of the best fighters of the world in 1942. Speed 331 mph. Range 1,160 miles. 2 x 20mm cannon (60 rounds) and 2 x LMG. No armor.
A6M3 - (Navy) Similar to A6M2, slightly shorter. Speed 346 mph. Range 925 miles. 2 x 20mm canon (100 rounds) and 2 X LMG. No armor.
Ki-43 - (Army) Main Army fighter. Speed 330 mph. Range 1,090 miles. 1 x LMG 1 x HMG, or 2 x HMG. No armor.
Ki-61 - (Army) New Army fighter. Speed 360 mph. Range 683 miles. 2 x HMG, 2 x LMG. Armor and SS tanks.
Ki-44 - (Army) New Army interceptor. Speed 376 mph. Range 750 miles. 4 x HMG or 2 x HMG and 2 x LMG. Armor and SS tanks.
Ki-45 - (Army) Obsolescent Army heavy fighter.. Speed 340 mph. Range 1,200 miles. 1 x 37mm, 1 x 20mm offensive, 1 x LMG defensive.