Was Operation Pedestal a greater Axis air attack than any faced by the USN in 1942?

[GrauGeist]

The IJN also used the A5M during the early part of 1942.
The last combat action was at the Battle of Coral Sea, attached to the Shoho's Air Group.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

We can be a little less inclusive and not list anything that was flying.
Ki-61 for instance was produced in Sept in 3 aircraft, 5 more in Oct, 10 in Nov and 15 in Dec. These were the production version and not counting the dozen or so prototypes.
The Japanese only formed up the first operational training unit in Feb 1943.
They built 131 Ki-44s in 1942, 61 of them in Nov and Dec.

That's fair about the Ki-61, but I would say the small numbers of Ki-44 compares pretty well to other aircraft like the Re-2001 (which is an aircraft I like a lot, and forgot to include in the list, but RCAFson kept mentioning), of which they only made 237 ever and only had maybe a dozen or two in combat units in 1942 IIRC

I kind of like the classification of the Macchi MC. 200 as obsolescent when it was so close in speed and climb to the Ki-43 that which plane had fresh spark plugs may have determined the winner.

That is ABSOLUTELY hilarious! This is one of the best things you ever posted.

I would LOVE to do a comparison of the combat histories of the MC.200 vs. the Ki-43. Both contended with many of the exact same types of aircraft (like say, Hurricanes) flown by nearly identical aircrews. The outcomes of combat were wildly different. On paper perhaps they look similar, in reality there is a yawning gap between the amount of harm they did to the Allied cause and specifically most Allied aircraft they encountered.

I think I will start a new thread on this one for sure. It definitely deserves a comparison. I just never thought I would find someone with any credibility (which you do have!) who would make this claim. I don't know the precise breakdown in victories per aircraft but I'm sure we can figure it out and I'd love to know the exact number.

Yes the MC 200 was short ranged, on the other had it had two 12.7mm machine guns with more ammo. BTW the Japanese did not change over to the engines with the two speed superchargers until late spring or early fall of 1942 making the main combat type of the Ki-43 in 1942 the Ki-43-I.

Still, in my opinion, Ki-43-I is VASTLY more dangerous than any mark of MC.200. I would love to be proven wrong though. I'll definitely start the other thread.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The IJN also used the A5M during the early part of 1942.
The last combat action was at the Battle of Coral Sea, attached to the Shoho's Air Group.

Good point. I also forgot Ki-27 and Re 2000 and 2001, I will revise the list.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I kind of like the classification of the Macchi MC. 200 as obsolescent

Anyway, the reason I included the Macchi MC. 200 as 'obsolescent' (distinct from 'obsolete') here is that in 1942 it was being phased out in favor of the far, far better MC.200; whereas the Ki-43 was definitely not being phased out in 1942, very much to the contrary, even though there were some other more modern fighter types becomming available for the JAAF.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Lets look a bit closer at the Axis aircraft in each Theater in 1942.

Japanese Recon
E8N - (Navy) obsolete biplane scout aircraft flown from a few battleships,. Range 558 miles, 190 mph, 2 x LMG
F1M - (Navy) an obsolete but apparently quite scrappy biplane floatplane scout / fighter, flown off of Battleships and Cruisers. Range 460 miles. 230 mph, 2 x offensive LMG, 1 x defensive
A6M2-N - (Navy) Floatplane fighter. Top speed 270 mph. Range 730 miles. Armament 2 x LMG, 2 x 20mm.
H6K - (Navy) Big, somewhat obsolescent flying boat. Speed 210 mph. Range 2900 miles. Armament 4 x LMG and 1 x 20mm. Can carry two torpedoes or 2,200 lb bombs.
H8K - (Navy) Big state of the art four engine flying boat. Speed 290 mph. Range 4000 miles. Armament 5 x 20mm and 4 x LMG. 2 x torpedoes or 4,400 lbs bombs
E13 - (Navy) Standard Japanese float plane scout flying from Cruisers. Speed 234 mph, range 1,200 miles. One defensive LMG.
Ki-15 - (Army and Navy - C5M to the IJN) Obsolescent early-war land based scout plane, used in the Solomons. Speed 300 mph, range 1,500 miles. One defensive LMG
Ki-30 - (Army) Obsolete early war land based scout plane. 263 mph, range 1,100 miles. 1 offensive and one defensive LMG
Ki-46 - (Army) Standard high speed twin engine recon plane. Speed 375 mph, range 1,500 miles. One defensive LMG.

Japanese Fighters
Ki-27 - (Army) Obsolete fixed undercarriage Army fighter. Speed 290 mph. Range 390 miles. 2 x LMG or 1 x LMG and 1 x HMG. "Hypermaneuverable"
A5M2 - Navy) Obsolete fixed undercarriage Navy fighter. Speed 270 mph. Range 746 miles. 2 x LMG. "Hypermaneuverable"
A6M2 - (Navy) One of the best fighters of the world in 1942. Speed 331 mph. Range 1,160 miles. 2 x 20mm cannon (60 rounds) and 2 x LMG. No armor. "Hypermaneuverable"
A6M3 - (Navy) Similar to A6M2, slightly shorter. Speed 346 mph. Range 925 miles. 2 x 20mm canon (100 rounds) and 2 X LMG. No armor. "Hypermaneuverable"
Ki-43 - (Army) Main Army fighter. Speed 330 mph. Range 1,090 miles. 1 x LMG 1 x HMG, or 2 x HMG. No armor. "Hypermaneuverable"
Ki-61 - (Army) New Army fighter. Speed 360 mph. Range 683 miles. 2 x HMG, 2 x LMG. Armor and SS tanks.
Ki-44 - (Army) New Army interceptor. Speed 376 mph. Range 750 miles. 4 x HMG or 2 x HMG and 2 x LMG. Armor and SS tanks.
Ki-45 - (Army) Obsolescent Army heavy fighter.. Speed 340 mph. Range 1,200 miles. 1 x 37mm, 1 x 20mm offensive, 1 x LMG defensive.

Italian / German Recon
Ro. 43 - Obsolescent Italian biplane scout. Range 500-930 miles. Speed 190 mph. Arms 2 x 7.7mm (I think one defensive)
Ro. 44 - Similar to Ro.43
AR-196 - Armed German float plane scout often flown from ships. Range 670 miles, speed 193 mph, 2 x 20 mm and 2 x LMG (defensive)
CANT Z.506 - Italian trimotor flying boat. Top speed 220 mph. Range 1,200 miles. 1 x HMG, 3 x LMG. Can carry one torpedo.
BV 138 - Weird (but well armed) little German trimotor flying boat. Speed 177 mph, range 760 miles, 2 x 20mm, 1 x HMG, up to 3 LMG. (small numbers)
FW 189 - Light twin engined German scout. 214 mph. 580 mile range. 2 x LMG, 2 x LMG (defensive) (small numbers)*
He 115 - Heavy twin engined German seaplane scout. 203 mph. 1,300 mile range. 1 x LMG, 1 x LMG (defensive) . One torpedo, mine or 2,700 lbs of bombs. (small numbers)
Caproni 310 - Light twin engined Italian scout. 227 mph, 1,050 mile range. 2 x LMG, 1 x LMG (defensive) (small numbers)
Caproni 313 - Light twin engined Italian Scout. 268 mph. 1050 mile range. 2 x LMG, 1 x LMG (defensive)
Fw 200 - German four engined maritime patrol. Speed 240 mph, range 2,200 miles, 1 x 20mm, 1 x HMG, 4 x LMG. (small numbers)
* not sure if those were used in Maritime role or not
Ju 86-r - German high alt recon. 260 mph. Range 1,090 miles. Apparently no armament.

Italian / German Fighters
Bf 109E-7- German obsolescent fighter. Speed 350 mph. Range 350 miles. 2 x 20mm, 2x LMG. Armor and SS tanks.
Bf 109F-2 - German top fighter. Speed 370 mph. Range 350 miles. 1 x 15mm, 2 x LMG. Armor and SS tanks. Superb performance.
Bf 109F-4 - German top fighter. Speed 390 mph. Range 530 miles (with drop tank?). 1 x 20mm, 2 x LMG. Armor and SS tanks. Superb performance.
Bf 110 (various) German heavy fighter. 336 mph. Range 481-680 (with / drop tanks). 2 x 20mm, 4 x LMG offensive. 1 x LMG defensive. Armor and SS tanks.
Fiat Cr.42 - Obsolete Italian fighter. 275 mph. Range 480 miles. 2 x HMG. Armor. Very maneuverable.
Fiat G.50 - Obsolescent Italian fighter. 290 mph. Range 277 miles. 2 x HMG. Armor.
Macchi MC.200 - Obsolescent Italian fighter. 313 mph. Range 350 miles. 2 x HMG. Armor and SS tanks.
Macchi MC.202 - Italian top fighter. Speed 370 mph. Range 475 miles. 2 x HMG, 2 x LMG. Armor and SS tanks. Superb performance.
Re 2000 - Very rare (only 5 used, but they fought near Malta and over Tunisia) Italian fighter. Speed 330 mph, Range 339 miles. 2 HMG. Some armor, no SS tanks.
Re 2001 - Rare but pretty good Italian fighter. Speed 337 mph, Range 680 miles. 2 x HMG, 2 x LMG. Armor and SS tanks (I think)

Japanese Strike
G3M - Japanese Navy twin-engined bomber - 233 mph,, 2,700 mile range, 1 x 20mm, 4 x LMG, 1 x torpedo or 1,800 lb bombs
G4M - Japanese Navy twin-engined bomber - 266 mph, 1,700 mile range, 1 x 20mm, 4 x LMG, 1 x torpedo or 2200 lb bombs
Ki-21 - Japanese Army twin-engined bomber - 300 mph, 1,700 mile range, 1 x HMG, 5 x LMG, 2200 lb bombs
Ki-48 - Japanese Army twin-engined bomber - 314 mph, 1,500 mile range, 3 x LMG, 1764 lbs of bombs
Ki-49 - Japanese Army twin-engined bomber - 306 mph, 1,200 mile range. 1 x 20mm and 3 x HMG, 2 x LMG. Armorand & self-sealing tanks. 2200 lb bombs.
B5N - Japanese torpedo bomber - Speed 235, range 978, 1 x torpedo
D3A - Japanese dive bomber - Speed 240 mph, 915 mile range, 550 / 870 lbs bombs
D4Y - Japanese dive bomber - Speed 340 mph, 910 mile range, 550 / 1100 lbs bombs

Italian / German Strike
Fiat BR.20 - Obsolete Italian twin-engine bomber - Speed 270 mph, range 1,700 miles, 3 x HMG, bombs 3530 lb. Nor armor.
SM. 79 - Italian trimotor bomber - Speed 290 mph, range 1600 miles, 2 x HMG, 2 x LMG, bombs 2,645 lbs or 1 torpedo*. At least some armor.
SM. 84** - Italian trimotor bomber - Speed 290 mph, Range 1100 miles, 4 x HMG, bombs 2,000 lbs or 1 torpedo. Armor and SS tanks.
CANT 1007 - Italian trimotor bomber - Speed 285 mph , Range 1100, 2 x HMG, 2 x LMG, bombs 2,645 lbs / 4900 lbs or 2 x torpedoes
He 111 (various) - German twin-engined bomber - Speed 270 mph, Range 1,400 miles, 1 x 20mm, 1 x HMG, (up to) 7 x LMG, bombs 4400 / 7900 or one or two torpedoes
Ju-87B - German dive bomber - Speed 236 mph, range 370 miles, 2 x LMG, 1 x LMG (defensive), bombs 1100 lbs / 1540 lbs. Some armor
Ju-87D - German dive bomber - Speed 240 mph, range 683 miles , 2 x 20mm, 2 x LMG (defensive) bombs 1100 lbs / 1540 lbs. Armor and SS tanks.
Ju-87R - German dive bomber - Speed 220 mph, range 492 -700 miles, 2 x LMG, 2 x LMG (defensive), bombs 1100 lbs. Armor and SS. tanks.
Ju-88A - German 'schnellbomber' - Speed 290 mph, range, 1,100 miles, 5 x LMG, bombs 2000 lbs / 6660 lbs. Could dive bomb. Armor and SS tanks.

* they could carry two but in practice only carried one.
** apparently unusually vulnerable, quickly removed from service.

EDITED to include Ki-27, A5M, Re 2000 and Re 2001

So in looking at these numbers, the obvious problem that the Germans and Italians have vs. the Japanese, is that the German + Italian fighters have very short range. The Japanese fighters have around two to three times the range of their Axis allies. That means Japanese strike aircraft can almost always fly with an escort. Italian and German strike aircraft by contrast must often fight on their own if they want to hit a British fleet that is not right near their bases. This continued to be a big problem right through the war.

Most Japanese fighters lacked armor or self sealing tanks in 1942 (this would start to change in 1943-44) but if you look at day to day combat losses, it does not really add up to a substantial increase in losses of Japanese fighters. Their enhanced maneuverability seems to compensate somewhat, and they don't always blow up or catch fire every time they are hit the way were kind of lead to believe by 20th Century accounts. The superior armor, SS tanks, and pilot rescue infrastructure of the Allies together seem to make much more of a difference over time via attrition. This would start telling by 1943 but not so much in 1942.

Japanese also have an advantage in recon. The Ki-46 is very hard to catch and very fast. Somewhat analogous to a Mosquito though only in the recon role. Japanese flying boats are faster and better armed than Italian ones (and this goes for Axis in general with the exception of 1 or 2 BV 222 etc.) The main Japanese float plane fighter (A6M-2N) is good enough to pose a serious threat to all Allied fighters in 1942, barring maybe the P-38. Neither the Germans nor Italians have anything like that.

The best German recon is probably the high flying Ju 86R (available in very small numbers) followed by He 111 and SM.79. But all three were getting shot down by this time.

The Allies, in comparison to the Germans and Italians, have a number of fast planes they can use for day-time Maritime recon - Maryland, Beaufighter, Baltimore. Ultra long range Wellingtons and Liberators can do recon and ASW further out. All this makes it extra perilous for the Axis to try to deploy any of their surface vessels and somewhat limits the efficacy of their (quite good) submarines.

The other big problem for the Germans is that their best bomber by far, the Ju 87, also has a very short range especially when carrying a largish bomb load. That means all long-range strikes against the Convoys are going to be by unescorted Ju 88, He 111, SM.79, SM.84, CANT 1007 and so on. Of these, both Ju 88 and SM.79 are fairly dangerous to Allied ships, but both are vulnerable against even second tier fighters. The others are extremely vulnerable and got slaughtered when they tangled with Allied fighters.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

So let's have a look at the actual TO&E at the time of Pedestal, in broad strokes.

After we digest this (assuming we can) we can get down into details.

According to Robert Ehlers' "The Mediterranean Air War", (not to be confused with Shores also quite useful book series of the same name) as well as some Osprey books and a couple of other sources, the following aircraft were available:

Royal Navy assets:
3 Carriers (4 if you also include the simultaneous Operation Bellows)
2 Battleships
3 Cruisers with heavy AAA and ASV (7 counting Bellows)
12 Destroyers (32 counting Bellows)
escorting 14 merchant ships.

FAA Air Assets:
72 Fighters (Sea Hurricanes, Fulmars and Martlets, as RCAFson already noted). Wikipedia says 74 fighters.
28 Albacores.

RAF Malta Assets
Originally 80 fighters, mostly Spitfire V, serviceable on Malta (end of July)
Augmented to 100 Spitfires and 36 Beaufighters in early August.
When HMS Furious was sunk on 11 August, 37 more Spitfires flew to Malta.
30 Wellington bombers (flying mostly ASW or at night)
30 Beaufort torpedo bombers
3 FAA Swordfish or Albacores (couldn't figure this out precisely)
6 PRU Recon Spitfires
5 Wellington recon
5 Baltimore recon
2 Liberators (recon / ASW)

This ads up to 209 single engined fighters (including 137 Spitfires!), 37 quite lethal, long ranged Beaufighters, and navy 31 dive / torpedo bombers, 60 twin engined bombers, and 18 recon / ASW. Total 246 fighters in Malta or on the carriers, 355 aircraft total. Not counting what was flying from the North African mainland.
The Spitfires had limited range and available fuel, but did fight in defense of the convoy and did shoot down Axis aircraft.

RAF Western Desert
And coastal command etc. Ehlers doesn't mention these but there were Beaufighters and Kittyhawks within range of Malta, I need to double check the other (Shores) MAW to see if they played any role. There were also many British recon planes available from across North Africa - Wellingtons, Marylands, Baltimores etc. plus Sunderlands

Axis Naval assets
21 U-boats and Submarines
28 E-boats or torpedo boats
12 destroyers
3 heavy cruisers

Axis Air Assets
600 Aircraft of all types in Theater. This includes a wide range from CR 42s and CANT 1007s and 506 (seaplanes) and other even more archaic types, to the much more modern BF 109F, MC 202, Ju 88 and Ju87D.

Wikipedia claims 304 fighters, 285 bombers, for 589 total, plus maybe a dozen miscellaneous recon etc.

Not all of these aircraft actually made any air strikes or flew any sorties during the battle. We'll break that down though.

 

[RCAFson]

So in looking at these numbers, the obvious problem that the Germans and Italians have vs. the Japanese, is that the German + Italian fighters have very short range. The Japanese fighters have around two to three times the range of their Axis allies. That means Japanese strike aircraft can almost always fly with an escort. Italian and German strike aircraft by contrast must often fight on their own if they want to hit a British fleet that is not right near their bases. This continued to be a big problem right through the war.

Most Japanese fighters lacked armor or self sealing tanks in 1942 (this would start to change in 1943-44) but if you look at day to day combat losses, it does not really add up to a substantial increase in losses of Japanese fighters. Their enhanced maneuverability seems to compensate somewhat, and they don't always blow up or catch fire every time they are hit the way were kind of lead to believe by 20th Century accounts. The superior armor, SS tanks, and pilot rescue infrastructure of the Allies together seem to make much more of a difference over time via attrition. This would start telling by 1943 but not so much in 1942.

Japanese also have an advantage in recon. The Ki-46 is very hard to catch and very fast. Somewhat analogous to a Mosquito though only in the recon role. Japanese flying boats are faster and better armed than Italian ones (and this goes for Axis in general with the exception of 1 or 2 BV 222 etc.) The main Japanese float plane fighter (A6M-2N) is good enough to pose a serious threat to all Allied fighters in 1942, barring maybe the P-38. Neither the Germans nor Italians have anything like that.

The best German recon is probably the high flying Ju 86R (available in very small numbers) followed by He 111 and SM.79. But all three were getting shot down by this time.

The Allies, in comparison to the Germans and Italians, have a number of fast planes they can use for day-time Maritime recon - Maryland, Beaufighter, Baltimore. Ultra long range Wellingtons and Liberators can do recon and ASW further out. All this makes it extra perilous for the Axis to try to deploy any of their surface vessels and somewhat limits the efficacy of their (quite good) submarines.

The other big problem for the Germans is that their best bomber by far, the Ju 87, also has a very short range especially when carrying a largish bomb load. That means all long-range strikes against the Convoys are going to be by unescorted Ju 88, He 111, SM.79, SM.84, CANT 1007 and so on. Of these, both Ju 88 and SM.79 are fairly dangerous to Allied ships, but both are vulnerable against even second tier fighters. The others are extremely vulnerable and got slaughtered when they tangled with Allied fighters.

The RN and FAA had no choice but to close within range of Axis airfield when escorting convoys to Malta. The Luftwaffe used high altitude JU88s as their primary recon aircraft, and they were almost untouchable by any Allied fighter if they stayed at high altitude. The pressurized recon variant of the JU86 was typically used over Egypt and would fly at ~40K ft. Only a few specially lightened Spitfires and Hurricanes had any hope of catching one, prior to the pressurized cockpit variants of the Spitfire.

Most IJNAF carrier TF recon was done by biplane or monoplane floatplanes and the Yorktown was found by an IJN Aichi E13A "Jake" and later TF16 by a Nakajima E8N2 'Dave'. At Midway the IJNAF had a prototype D4Y1 which was used to keep tabs on Yorktown for a short time.

By and large IJAAF aircraft were a non-factor in the South Pacific and were only rarely encountered by USN carrier TFs.

The JU87-R had very good range and could carry 250kg or 500kg bombs and drop tanks. JU-87Rs sank HMS Southampton at ~300nm from their base in Jan 1941. Other Stuka variants could employ drop tanks to increase their range as could Me109s and Me110s.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Midway
by contrast had:

233 USN carrier based planes
127 land based planes (Army and USMC)
=360 aircraft in total

vs

248 IJN carrier based + 28 float planes or flying boats,
= 276 aircraft in total

This looks like an easier time for the Allies, except that the Allies had only 107 modern fighters (86 F4F Wildcats, counting 6 land based F4F-3A, and 21 obsolescent F2A buffalo), compared to the British 206 fighters at Pedastal (137 excellent Spitfires + 72 Sea Hurricanes, Fulmars and Martlets) whereas all of the Japanese fighters were excellent A6M types. Axis aircraft during Pedestal are a mix.

The air forces at Midway break down as follows:

Japanese
93 x A6M (very good)
70 x D3A (very good)
81 x B5N (good, though vulnerable)
2 x D4Y (fast recon)
5 x E13 (seaplane recon)
10 x E8N (seaplane recon)
1 x E11A (seaplane recon)

I think also some H6 flying boats but not certain.

American (Carrier based)
79 x F4F-4 Wildcat (good)
109 x SBD-3 Dauntless (very good)
44 x TBD-1 Devastator (obsolete)

American (Midway Island)
7 x F4F-3A Wildcat (Good, probably better than F4F-4 in some respects)
21 x Brewster F2A (obsolescent)
19 x SBD-2 Dauntless (early version of SBD, vulnerable)
17 x SB2U-3 Vindicator
17 x B-17 (early version)
31 x PBY-5 Catalina (recon flying boat)
4 x B-26 Marauder (good torpedo bomber)
6 x TBF-1 Avenger (good torpedo bomber)

Of this mix, we know that the Devastator torpedo bomber was obsolete. Midway air force being kind of similar to the Axis during Pedestal, many were antiques or weird experiments that didn't work out. I don't think any of the Midway based bombers scored any hits and the Buffaloes got wrecked by the Zeros. For the most part in terms of fighters it was 79 Wildcats vs. 93 Zeros. Both the D3A and the SBD were quite deadly. The Japanese B5s were a bit more vulnerable but they were definitely also ship sinkers, unlike the pretty much useless TBD.

Now what remains is to break down the Axis fighters and strike aircraft at Pedestal, and then look at each sortie in detail.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The RN and FAA had no choice but to close within range of Axis airfield when escorting convoys to Malta. The Luftwaffe used high altitude JU88s as their primary recon aircraft, and they were almost untouchable by any Allied fighter if they stayed at high altitude. The pressurized recon variant of the JU86 was typically used over Egypt and would fly at ~40K ft. Only a few specially lightened Spitfires and Hurricanes had any hope of catching one, prior to the pressurized cockpit variants of the Spitfire.

Actually both Kittyhawks and Spitfire Vs shot down recon Ju 88s routinely. A lightened high altitude Spitfire pretty much ended the career of the Ju 86R, which was a problem for a little while.

Most IJNAF carrier TF recon was done by biplane or monoplane floatplanes and the Yorktown was found by an IJN Aichi E13A "Jake" and later TF16 by a Nakajima E8N2 'Dave'. At Midway the IJNAF had a prototype D4Y1 which was used to keep tabs on Yorktown for a short time.

Carrier recon was by definition from carrier planes, but they also coordinated with flying boats and other seaplanes. The Mavis was active during Coral Sea, Midway and

By and large IJAAF aircraft were a non-factor in the South Pacific and were only rarely encountered by USN carrier TFs.

Actually that is not true around New Guinea where quite a bit of fighting took place including some naval battles and air-sea actions. The JAAF did join the battle a bit later in the year (after Coral Sea which was the biggest air-naval battle in that area in 1942).

The JU87-R had very good range and could carry 250kg or 500kg bombs and drop tanks. JU-87Rs sank HMS Southampton at ~300nm from their base in Jan 1941. Other Stuka variants could employ drop tanks to increase their range as could Me109s and Me110s.

Ju 87, or Bf 109 or 110 carying drop tanks couldn't also carry a lot of bombs at the same time . I included range figures for Bf 109 and 110 with drop tanks. It still wasn't very far. Bf 109 is the one that mattered anyway because a Sea Hurricane or Martlet could handle a Bf 110.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Bf 109 and Bf 110 were also used as fighter bombers, both pretty effective in the role. Bf 109E was mainly being used as a "Jabo" i.e. fighter bomber by the time of Pedestal. I listed it as 'obsolescent' for this reason, even though by world standards a Bf 109E-7 was still pretty good in 1942.

 

[RCAFson]

Actually both Kittyhawks and Spitfire Vs shot down recon Ju 88s routinely. A lightened high altitude Spitfire pretty much ended the career of the Ju 86R, which was a problem for a little while.



Carrier recon was by definition from carrier planes, but they also coordinated with flying boats and other seaplanes. The Mavis was active during Coral Sea, Midway and



Actually that is not true around New Guinea where quite a bit of fighting took place including some naval battles and air-sea actions. The JAAF did join the battle a bit later in the year (after Coral Sea which was the biggest air-naval battle in that area in 1942).



Ju 87, or Bf 109 or 110 carying drop tanks couldn't also carry a lot of bombs at the same time . I included range figures for Bf 109 and 110 with drop tanks. It still wasn't very far. Bf 109 is the one that mattered anyway because a Sea Hurricane or Martlet could handle a Bf 110.

FAA aircraft shot down recon JU88s as well, but as I stated only when they ventured to lower altitudes.

I don't think there were any IJN 'Mavis' aircraft involved in the Midway battle.

USN carrier involvement with IJAAF aircraft was very limited in 1942.

The JU87 could carry drop tanks and a 250KG bomb to maximum range or 500kg bomb with a slightly reduced range, which is still twice the payload of a Val. The Me110 could carry drop tanks and a 250KG bomb.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

FAA aircraft shot down recon JU88s as well, but as I stated only when they ventured to lower altitudes.

I dont think Spit V had any trouble catching them, Kittyhawks seemed to get them a lot as well, though I don't know what alt. You can only see so much from 35,000 ft with ww2 cameras.

I don't think there were any IJN 'Mavis' aircraft involved in the Midway battle.

We are talking "USN in 1942" not just Midway, but I think H6 or H8 were there, will find out soon.

USN carrier involvement with IJAAF aircraft was very limited in 1942.

The JU87 could carry drop tanks and a 250KG bomb to maximum range or 500kg bomb with a slightly reduced range, which is still twice the payload of a Val. The Me110 could carry drop tanks and a 250KG bomb.

Still outranged by Japanese strike aircraft and fighters

 

[Greg Boeser]

FAA aircraft shot down recon JU88s as well, but as I stated only when they ventured to lower altitudes.

I don't think there were any IJN 'Mavis' aircraft involved in the Midway battle.

USN carrier involvement with IJAAF aircraft was very limited in 1942.

The JU87 could carry drop tanks and a 250KG bomb to maximum range or 500kg bomb with a slightly reduced range, which is still twice the payload of a Val. The Me110 could carry drop tanks and a 250KG bomb.

IJN flying boats were supposed to take part at Midway, but, thanks to PURPLE, a USN seaplane tender was on station at French Frigate Schoals to block the rendezvous with the Japanese refueling submarine.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Ok I don't see any H6 at Midway but they were at Coral Sea and also active over the Solomons, based in the Marshal Islands and Rabaul. H8k also in the Solmons in 1943.

A6M2-N also in the Solomons, based at Shortland island from 1942.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

This is pretty interesting R-Area Air Force - Wikipedia

Looks like there were some H8K, F1M, E-13s and A6M2-Ns at Faisi Island and / or Rekata Bay in the Solmons in Nov 1942

 

[Greg Boeser]

IJAAF didn't get involved in New Guinea until December 1942. First units (1st and 11th Sentais) still flying Ki-43 I. Ki-43 II didn't arrive until June '43.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Yep. But they did get into some action in Dec 1942.

 

[Shortround6]

That's fair about the Ki-61, but I would say the small numbers of Ki-44 compares pretty well to other aircraft like the Re-2001 (which is an aircraft I like a lot, and forgot to include in the list, but RCAFson kept mentioning), of which they only made 237 ever and only had maybe a dozen or two in combat units in 1942 IIRC

The Difference is that while the RE. Falco II went into combat over Malta in May of 1942 in admittedly small numbers, the 'production' Ki-44s were in Japan and were not used on combat operations. Yes there were a group Ki-44-Is that saw action in China/Malaya but that was 9/11 preproduction aircraft on combat user trials. Accounts say 9 with 2 prototypes brought up to the newer standard. No planes were produced in Sept through Dec while the "trials" were carried out and then a batch of 40 aircraft were ordered while work went forward on the Ki-44 II with the new 2 speed engine. After the Doolittle raid the Ki-44 unit was called back to Japan for home defense and there it and the the new units stayed for most of 1942. the last Ki-44 I left the production line in Oct 1942.
This is one of the aspects of the Pacific war that differs from Europe. It often took weeks (or months for the British and Americans) to deploy new types of aircraft (or other equipment) into combat areas. In Europe they still needed to train crews on new types but it was only one or two tanks of fuel to get a new airplane (or new unit) from the factory or training area to combat zone. The Ki-44 II was used in China in one Sentai and then two Sentai were converted during 1943 to defend the oil refineries in Sumatra. They just were not a factor in 1942.

Still, in my opinion, Ki-43-I is VASTLY more dangerous than any mark of MC.200. I would love to be proven wrong though. I'll definitely start the other thread.

It might be, it is just that the speed and climb to 5,000 meters were so close. Roll rate and turning circle and other things can affect combat, however nobody has ever claimed the MC. 200 was not maneuverable.
And for all but the last month or so of 1942 the Ki-43 I was the version being used with just a few Ki-43 IIs trickling in.

And now we are also having to consider the opposition. Like pilot quality/training/experience. The MC. 200 was close to the Hurricane I in performance and is supposed to have been able to able to out maneuver, out climb and out climb the Hurricane although perhaps by not as much as the Ki 43?
Both planes used the ammo in the guns, you could actually fire the Italian ammo in the Japanese guns. Both guns did not synchronize well. But the Italian aircraft carried 370rpg instead of 250rpg.

Edit. They built over 5 times as many Ki-43s as they did MC.200s so just in sheer numbers the MC. 200 wasn't going to have as much impact. Because of the shortage of engines for the MC. 202s production of the MC. 200 continued for a while simultaneously so it's span of time in combat is also from the summer of 1940 through the summer/fall of 1943. A long time to spread 1150 aircraft over.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I certainly don't think considering whether Pedestal was a greater axis air attack than any in the pacific in 1942 is silly, but it is hard to compare the fighting. And just considering the axis attack out of context really ignores, well, context.

I think it can become an informative argument, but rather than piling into that, I want to briefly consider the apples to oranges problem.

In pedestal the important objective was the merchant ships, the war ships were irrelevant to the strategic win. Especially at Midway, it was all about the warships.

Attackers in Pedestal were land based with advantages and disadvantages compared to planes based on moving vessels.

An offspring of this was that both sides in the pasific had to be both offensive and defensive at the same time. Sinking your opponents carriers while protecting your own. In Pedestal it was more a one side attacks, the other defends thing.

One could argue that the battles in connection with Guadalcanal was about the Island and not the fleets. However, from memory and that may mislead me, the carrier battles around Guadalcanal was largely the distant cowering forces clashing. Of course Henderson field does add an element of land based air power into the equation. As doers Midway, but somehow i don't see the comparison becoming simpler by that.

In the Pacific you could dodge around on the largest Sea on the globe making predicting the position of the enemy difficult. In the Med a convoy with an obvious target wes channelled through narrow straits.

That said, I look forward to following the discussion, and hope it will develop in a way that don't neccessitate the thread being closed prematurely.

Both Bismarck Sea and the night sea battles around the 'Canal were occasioned by, if not always fought over, the destruction of resupply convoys. Bismarck seems the closest parallel to Pedestal in terms of mission and context (land air attacking naval convoy) on both sides, to me.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

So it looks like during Pedestal, there were actually 39 x Bf 109 and 27 x MC 202 serviceable, and 182 modern bombers (Ju 88 and Ju 87). Admittedly that is a fairly large number of Axis bombers, mostly Ju 88s.

But everything else was a mix of obsolete types, weird seaplanes recon aircraft. Aside from some semi-plausible G.50, MC.200, and CR.42s, and admittedly fairly dangerous SM.79s, the total includes Z.506, BR.20, Z.501, and S.66. None of those are really even combat planes in 1942, let alone front line.

I think there were also some Re 2001 in Sicily but haven't been able to track those down yet, but no more than 1 squadron IIRC.

So instead of 72 badly outnumbered FAA fighters fending off an astonishing armada of 600 enemy planes, we actually see 245 British fighters (72 navy planes assisted by over 137 Spitfires and 36 Beaufighters) supported by about 100 modern bombers and recon planes, against ~75 front line Axis fighters and 182 modern bombers plus a mish-mash of mostly obsolete types. Some very obsolete. And most of whom I don't even think flew missions during the battle.

As originally presented, Pedestal was 8-1 odds against the FAA fighter pilots, mostly flying Sea Hurricanes. But we (cough) forgot 137 Spitfires. And we implied that there was 600 front line Axis fighters and strike planes.

In actuality in terms of front line fighter strength it looks like more than 3-1 odds in favor of the British, with the additional factor that most of the best Axis fighters would only be able to participate in the fighting at the very end of the convoy's journey when it was just about at Malta.

At Midway by comparison, it was about 1-1 on fighters (with the Japanese having a few more modern types), but the Japanese had 150 front line bombers while the Americans really only had 100 (the SBDs).